C300: Canon C300 mkII

[jw2700]

A camera without cables attached? I havent seen one of them yet! :-D

Love the C300 MkII anouncement. As a very happy C300 owner/operator with tricked-out Element Technica four-point top of camera base-station setup, it's great to hear that "those two damn cables..." are still relevant.

The camera will continue to look essentially the same to clients... Great news and long live the C300.

 

[DLD]

Are we looking at the same camera? ... Alexa and C300 are totally different cameras made for different people.

You pick a decent shooter with time to get used to both Alexa and C300 MK II and - provided the MK II specs are real - s/he will get you the fantastic looking, and often barely distinguishable, visuals from both cameras. And Canon will do this for a fraction of the Alexa price.

And, to pick up an old thread meme from other discussions, the photo-video digital image acquisition market is being compressed in terms of value with each product cycle. In the stills world, 5Ds/5Dr is basically giving a medium format quality for under $4,000. Likewise, in the moving images side, FS7 and URSA give you the specs of a quarter million dollar camera of a decade ago. Even if C300 MK II is a glorified DSLR, as you put it, its image quality ought to be comparable with anything below F65, Red Dragon and the 6K Alexa. And that brings us back to the "80% quality for 25% of the price" line. The difference now is that, unless one watches the footage off a big ass server feeding his personal Barco or Christie projector, he can't identify what shot came from the 6K Alexa and which from C300 MK II, making it "99% quality for 25% of the price". In that scenario, a less expensive camera always wins.

 

[Surf it Mike]

It is in this margin the big boys play with high end camera systems / logistics and $$$$. In case you haven't noticed there has been substantial movement in this field beyond what the mark ii offers .

IMO. Great camera for reality / doco tv production...... anything else remains to be proven by the marketplace and not by marketing hype.

 

[Erik Naso]

The C300 MKII looks pretty good to me but then I've owned a C100 and at work the C300 is my main camera. I love the image. I love C Log. It's been and still is a very good camera for my needs. I'm a little disappointed at the price point for the MKII but we will probably see the price come down when it's actually selling. Lease deals are very god with Canon. It really is a no brainer to go with Canon financing if you are a legit biz. Texas Media Systems is fantastic. I used them for my C100.

When the original C300 was introduced I paned it hard. I felt it was under spected and over priced. Here we are again..... However this version has way more features than the original did. Innovative ones too. And after I actually used both cameras I had to eat crow because I loved the image. And yes crow taste like chicken only it's dry.... :-D

The C300 has a feature no other camera has and that's the Dual Pixel AF. The new version is just plain crazy cool. With a movable target and 10 different settings for how the speed of the focus works this is a single operators dream come true. Oh and 15 stops of DR is also impressive with the new C-Log2 gamma. I'm not going to justify all the features but I do think you need to look at what the C300 MKII offers that the others dont. Now of course if it's only price your looking at then I have three GH4's I would like to sell you.....

It strikes me as a little funny because the rage for raw and 10bit is very common on the web and here. The C300 MKII offers raw output, 10bit and internal 4K at a massive 410 Mbps. Yes the frame rates are limited. Thats one I dont understand with Canon however if the MX- AVC Intra codec is solid then 2K capture at 120 fps will uprez nicely for the occasional scenes that requires it in a 4K project. I would probably use 2K more than 4K for my work anyway.

So I've been on the fence since I sold my C100 about what to buy and I'm almost certain I will pull the trigger on the C300 MKII but I have to also say I might wait it out and get a deal on a used C500 or C300 for a year and wait for a price break. We know it will come. It always does. The best advice one can get is do the math. Can you afford a camera you want with the clients you have? If the answer is no then buy what you can make money with. Dont lose the farm for a "want" And remember folks. The camera you own now will still work tomorrow.

 

[PedroAquiles]

The difference now is that, unless one watches the footage off a big ass server feeding his personal Barco or Christie projector, he can't identify what shot came from the 6K Alexa and which from C300 MK II, making it "99% quality for 25% of the price". In that scenario, a less expensive camera always wins.

That its the really true and the reason i sold my Hasselblad H3D medium format camera ! 90% of the clients in photography just don´t see the difference in quality from a 20.000$ to my 5D mark III, the same that happen in photography in the last 10years will happen in movie production. And sad ...the production prices paid will shrink to half too in the next 10 years...

 

[AndreeOnline]

One major difference between the C300 and the mkII as an investment, is that I predict the mkII to be able to stay "relevant" for much longer.

Sure, there is already talk about 8k but no matter what the salesforce say, you need a REALLY big screen to profit from it. I'm not stressing about 8k personally, so what else? Might we see new display technology allowing for greatly increased dynamic range? Like HDR panels? And will that drive new sensor and codec tech? Who knows.

The C300 was HD when 4k was already underway and it was 8bit. Even Canon admitted 8bit wasn't optimal in their white papers, but wanted to enter the market sooner than later.

In the mkII we have the resolution with 4k, we have the quality with high bit depth and intra frame codec and large and flexible color spaces. With 15 stops (I don't know why people debate this, Canon shoots proud and straight—one of the upsides of their conservative ways) there are no real limits. We have a very adjustable auto focus. You have the bases covered for basic slow motion and timelapse.

I also sense Canon has something up their sleeve with the wider sensor. The "introducing" video from Canon on YouTube (really recommended by the way) says the extra width remains unused "for now". Maybe support for cinematic aspect ratios without cropping away too many pixels in post? In camera stabilisation via firmware?

When the first videos from the mkII shows up in "web optimised" 540p from Canon… well, let's all just let Canon know what we feel about that via Twitter or whatever...

…but in the next phase, when real footage shows up, I'm guessing we'll see 'best in class' images. The C500 has some of the most detailed images out there. Take what Canon has learned so far, add internal 10bit and Canon Log2 (or even 4:4:4 12bit 2k).

Looking at this camera, I don't really see anything that makes me think it will grow old quickly. Quite the opposite.

 

[Alpha Beta Omega]

Looking at the claimed 15 stops of DR I can say that the tests I've seen comparing the C300 to the F3 the F3 is superior when it comes to DR. When I still had my F3 I tested it against my FS7 and found out that the FS7 had more DR than the F3 (around 13 stops with S-log) so I have no doubts about the 14 stops on the FS7 or very close to that. It will be very interesting when the DR tests comes on the C300 MKII!

 

[AndreeOnline]

The C300 mkII has a new sensor, new powerful processing and, to accommodate the DR, a new log profile.

It's the log profile that determines the amount of stops. Canon Log was designed with 8 bit in mind to produce 12 stop. Canon Log2 is designed for 10 and 12 bit and allows for 15 stops.

The nature of the Log2 profile is such that the code values have been distributed over 15 stops. It's not haphazard. There will be a white paper.

Canon Log on a C300 mkII will still only produce 12 stops.

So, let's omit the "claimed" and "supposed" in future discussions. The only reservation I have is that if you don't "believe" or "think" that Canon Log is 12 stops, then Canon Log2 won't be 15 stops either. Canon's definition is technical and correct. In all cases Canon Log2 will have 3 more stops than Canon Log. Some people like to define things for themselves and talk about "usable stops". That's fine, but IT IS blog material—NOT matter of fact.

I have not seen Sony's documentation for Slog in either flavor. If someone provides it, it's a simple matter of overlaying the two curves.

--------------

As for exactly how Canon achieves this, I'm not sure that will be public information. Some speculation has been thanks to dual Digic5 they have the processing power to implement dual ISO processing in the background to get more reach that a simple raw readout of the sensor would allow. The same processing, whatever it is, would still apply to the 'raw' output (external), as it isn't really raw anyway (this applies to all brands).

 

[Alpha Beta Omega]

View attachment 99803

Curves.

 

[AndreeOnline]

That chart should be usable. Can't do the overlay work right now, but just looking at it, Sony has more stops on the highlight side than Canon.

I'd say that the 3 new stops in Canon Log2 would be one highlight and two shadows.

 

[alohype]

C300II specs indicate one thing: C500ii will be an absolute killer camera. Because what else is left there? C300ii will already have raw output. I think we can expect definitely prores internally (maybe even raw like red??), 4K hfr, maybe dual iso and some other features that no one thought of before to justify (double?) the price.

Regarding raw: when you compare C300II vs FS7 price wise we have to remember that FS7 needs that extension unit. Price is coming a lot closer in that case.

 

[DLD]

That its the really true and the reason i sold my Hasselblad H3D medium format camera ! 90% of the clients in photography just don´t see the difference in quality from a 20.000$ to my 5D mark III, the same that happen in photography in the last 10years will happen in movie production. And sad ...the production prices paid will shrink to half too in the next 10 years...

A 50 MPX sensor in a $3,700 5Ds/r makes images probably indistinguishable from a $50,000 medium format camera of 2-3 years ago.

Olympus EM5 MK II produces a 60 MPX Raw image using a pixel-shifting technology from a $1,100 consumer camera.

Things move fast in the digital world.

Sure, there is already talk about 8k but no matter what the salesforce say, you need a REALLY big screen to profit from it. I'm not stressing about 8k personally, so what else? Might we see new display technology allowing for greatly increased dynamic range? Like HDR panels? And will that drive new sensor and codec tech? Who knows...

Current screens are about 6-7 stops and the HDR technology might take it to 10 or so. It'll be a huge improvement for an average viewer but still way under the capabilities of the pro cameras.

The innate 8K will probably be for the special events only. (OK, Apple is allegedly getting ready to release a 27" 8K monitor for one of its flagship pro systems ... at about 330 PPI, it'd still be lower than the 557 PPI screen from a new Samsung smart phone ... with no 8K sources, this will need a massive upscale, which is what likely to happen with the consumer grade TV's, as they ramp up their pixel count also)

C300II specs indicate one thing: C500ii will be an absolute killer camera. Because what else is left there? C300ii will already have raw output. I think we can expect definitely prores internally (maybe even raw like red??), 4K hfr, maybe dual iso and some other features that no one thought of before to justify (double?) the price...

Depending on when it comes out, C500 ... no, let's make it C700, will have either 6K or 8K resolution.

Canon recently demonstrated a system with a parallel sensor readout, sufficient for 8K at 24p. Presuming this technology is adaptable to other Canon products - they were using a 120 MPX sensor at 9 FPS - then all that they'll have to do is to repurpose their 50 MPX sensor from 5Ds/r for a 16:9 8K ... plus, double the double-processor setup from C300 MK II.

 

[FrameFarmMedia]

Regarding raw: when you compare C300II vs FS7 price wise we have to remember that FS7 needs that extension unit. Price is coming a lot closer in that case.

I wouldn't call $2K closer 'A lot closer' when the spread is $8K plus you get Vlock and ProRes internal rec options which C300II doesn't have.

I agree about the C500 being in a very interesting spot to go right against the highest end of the industry and make up where the C500mk1 failed to gain traction.

 

[Pave1]

I would like to see only C300 "mark II HD" camera version - HD 10bit (XF-AVC) without 4K/UHD ITU-R 2020 gamut and without raw output (for about 12000USD).
Sony FS7 (due F5/F55 market) hasn't ITU-R 2020 - raw, genlock&external timecode and ProResHQ internaly on XQD cards is only via adapter (2000USD).

I will wait at last 5 years for 4K in my country, HD with 10bit and canon-log would be nice .-) .

 

[alohype]

I wouldn't call $2K closer 'A lot closer' when the spread is $8K plus you get Vlock and ProRes internal rec options which C300II doesn't have.

It's actually about $3k in Europe and I'm also hoping that C300II will have lower price at the release to the market (like some people suggests - similar to C300 mark I). I was also comparing that only on the RAW side - but of course you're right. You get more with FS7+extension unit.

I agree about the C500 being in a very interesting spot to go right against the highest end of the industry and make up where the C500mk1 failed to gain traction.

There's also an indication that something very big from Canon can even come very soon is the fact that C300II announcement was BEFORE NAB. Like they would leave king of the show seat for something else.

 

[puredrifting]

There's also an indication that something very big from Canon can even come very soon is the fact that C300II announcement was BEFORE NAB. Like they would leave king of the show seat for something else.

Good point, I don't think Canon will have used up all of their exciting new announcements the week before the big show. It is a SHOW after all!

 

[Surf it Mike]

The hints are that sensor shot for the C300 with not all of it being used. Can't help but think this is reservered for the next step up. Also given C500 current acceptance can't help but think thats why C700 maybe true.

 

[alpi69]

The real FS7 competitor is the C100 Mark II since they're much, much closer in price.

See that is the Canon thinking. Make a price and that is your market. But the "market" are we and we look at the specs first and ergonomics second. The ergonomics can be argued with, because the C300 is small and flexible (kind of at least), but the FS7 has a shoulder-rig built in(kind off at least)

The specs are in favor of the FS7. SLOG, higher framerate, XAVC is already standard, RAW option. PLUS and it is a big plus: unlike Canon the SONYs always get developed: the F55, F5 and FS7 are getting important firmwareupgrades constantly increasing framerates, SLOG option etc. They are evolving the cams. Canon gave the C300 one or two minor upgrades plus a paid upgrade for AF.
I own a C300 and the MKII does not speak to me at all with its specs. Especially knowing that Canon will not add features. So for thew price (even if it comes near EUR 13000 like the C300I) it stands no chance on the marklet against the FS7MKII which might be here when the C300MKII comes out.

 

[Graham King]

I'm so glad you guys don't like this camera - less people to compete with while I'm waiting for my preorder to ship.

 

[alohype]

I'm so glad you guys don't like this camera - less people to compete with while I'm waiting for my preorder to ship.

+1
If everything what Canon is claiming will be true I see it like this: Alexa mini minus prores plus run n gun aids (AF, weather sealing) for the quarter of the price.