C200: Canon C200 Or Red Gemini
- Thread starter tomster
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
I have the Sigma 14mm T2.0 Cine Prime right now on my C200 and it's AMAZING! Not a 16mm but not that much difference. But it's $5k. I also have the 50mm T.15 and the 85mm T1.5. If I was making a movie, I would rent these in a heartbeat, very nice lenses for the money.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Yep. Not having a 16mm isn't the end of the world. That was my point to Morgan. When you look at lens sets outside of the true upper echelon(like UP's & MP's), a 16mm prime is pretty rare.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
On a typical lowish budget (read no big HMI lights) drama one may have to shoot an establishing wide. And all the lights have to be out of shot of course.
Shooting the tights (MCU CU ECU) is always easy as you can 'cheat' the lights 'in' (closer)
So the wide shot has to have the lights furthest back with the largest diffusion and be lit to the fastest stop of the slowest lens in the set.
A slow wide can have a significant impact on a drama shoot, therefore.
Also required FOV on lo budget drama (read no sets you can roll the walls out of the way) tends to be wider than HB drama.
One needs therefore either proper cine primes or another plan. The Stigma 18-35, 11-16 is an option, speedboosted classic glass (not possible on C200) etc Im sure there are other solutions.
Shooting the tights (MCU CU ECU) is always easy as you can 'cheat' the lights 'in' (closer)
So the wide shot has to have the lights furthest back with the largest diffusion and be lit to the fastest stop of the slowest lens in the set.
A slow wide can have a significant impact on a drama shoot, therefore.
Also required FOV on lo budget drama (read no sets you can roll the walls out of the way) tends to be wider than HB drama.
One needs therefore either proper cine primes or another plan. The Stigma 18-35, 11-16 is an option, speedboosted classic glass (not possible on C200) etc Im sure there are other solutions.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
My comments are supposed not to be condesending but harshly realistic. Obviously Im not fully in the picture about your work, the feature, its budget, any extra bits you can buy rent and any departments that are excluded from the service you will provide to the production company.
My feeling is the Red package + your listed kit does not add up to a LB feature ready camera, lighting and grip departments
You have not even adressed my comments on the futility of a Movi and no remote focus or wireless link (£3k)
Also the wide might push you to a 4X5 matte box which could be another grand or two with decent filters.
The bigger matte box a remote sender (teradek), some blub from the soundie, and batteries that last when powering all that gack could push you into a bigger head/sticks.. another £4k
Thats £9 grand of peripherals you dont have sitting on a typical feature built Red.
Edit. There is also monthly insurance costs, security and pelicases to budget.
Just last week I rented my wireless focus and remote monitor to a Movi pro 'owner/op', doubtless nicking most of his margin on the rentals on the shoot.
We all hit the point were we want to go Red (Ive got as close as being in the shop at Pinewood with a wad of cash in my account!) as the FS7 is just a bit thin on the file. But then you see or not other solutions - for example I do some shoots that involves renting a Phantom.. at that point your 240/300 fps just starts looking a bit crummy.
There is nothing worse than being on jobs where your kit is sitting at home and the production is renting from someone else. You will meet/work with directors who want alexa mini or red or phantom or anamorphic or zeiss or whatever they just read a blog about, even if a C200 and some CNE glass is more than capable of delivering the files needed for the shoot - they just wont listen. Because in thier shoes you are just another rental house - a bad one - with half a Red and half a set of glass, and half of a Movi and no spares to call on if they pack up.
It looks to be a sexy camera though - so if you have it at a rental house when u are not using it it might get a fantastic ROI.
Out of interest I just checked Filmsat59 and ShootBlue.. neither rent canon cine primes.. that seems good evidence of the amount of directors and DPs who are speccing them. Thos companies obviously dont think they get ROI. I agree with them.
I think you might lack clarity on what the kit is for. If it is not in daily use on your work then surely it is to have at a rental house - the feature blurs the clarity on the business model.
You might be best to buy a (very rented, very popular) CN17 zoom and park it at a rental house and rent all the kit for the feature!
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The budget is the credit I have at the shop rather than all the money i have in the world. I will get VAT back on everything I buy which will give some cash for small extras as well.
The feature is a separate thing so think of me having a camera I can use on it as just a way of multi purposing a camera purchase and taking something off the camera department budget. All things I don't own for the feature will be rented with the rest of the budget so no dramas there. My kit needs to support me as a owner operator and cinematographer or on occasions shooting director. I also make a lot of small projects in my own time which i like to use my equipment for. Rent wise I would be using Fatlama so just renting to guys like myself who want a camera for a short film they are doing. Nothing massive who like you say would use a rental house anyway. I think my decision has now changed from Gemini or C200 to Gemini or wait.
I don't think the C200 offers enough of a jump in IQ and clients will just see the Raw on a low end canon camera as a hassle. The C200 would be great as a replacement for my FS7 if I just did my own short films and didn't need professional codecs or if I didn't own any camera but to sit next to it as the go to high end camera I think it just falls short. Bear in mind that this is the result of camera tests I have performed on both cameras and not a spec sheet. The C200 didn't fair badly at all in this regard and is certainly a richer image with nicer colours than my FS7 however seeing the Gemini image surprised me. The Gemini image really did look like a league up in image quality and when you throw in the slow motion options as well I came to the conclusion of Gemini or wait.
Trouble is if I wait on the camera I will pay more for the Movi and Cines as im getting an amazing deal on them by putting everything on one order. I do hear you about having half a kit by the way. On the flip side to that however I can build those kits up over time but my C200 will never gradually turn into a Gemini.
ATB
Tom
The feature is a separate thing so think of me having a camera I can use on it as just a way of multi purposing a camera purchase and taking something off the camera department budget. All things I don't own for the feature will be rented with the rest of the budget so no dramas there. My kit needs to support me as a owner operator and cinematographer or on occasions shooting director. I also make a lot of small projects in my own time which i like to use my equipment for. Rent wise I would be using Fatlama so just renting to guys like myself who want a camera for a short film they are doing. Nothing massive who like you say would use a rental house anyway. I think my decision has now changed from Gemini or C200 to Gemini or wait.
I don't think the C200 offers enough of a jump in IQ and clients will just see the Raw on a low end canon camera as a hassle. The C200 would be great as a replacement for my FS7 if I just did my own short films and didn't need professional codecs or if I didn't own any camera but to sit next to it as the go to high end camera I think it just falls short. Bear in mind that this is the result of camera tests I have performed on both cameras and not a spec sheet. The C200 didn't fair badly at all in this regard and is certainly a richer image with nicer colours than my FS7 however seeing the Gemini image surprised me. The Gemini image really did look like a league up in image quality and when you throw in the slow motion options as well I came to the conclusion of Gemini or wait.
Trouble is if I wait on the camera I will pay more for the Movi and Cines as im getting an amazing deal on them by putting everything on one order. I do hear you about having half a kit by the way. On the flip side to that however I can build those kits up over time but my C200 will never gradually turn into a Gemini.
ATB
Tom
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Clearly you have logical thoughts and some factors at play.
My random thoughts are..
Movi+Wireless monitor + (C200AF OR remote focus unit is cool) - buy a fully pimped Movi today they are cool but only if you can see and focus even if it is on a jib
I dont think the canon glass gels somehow.. even EF mount could be a bit janky when torqued by a focus motor.. if you are being offered it cheap there is a reason.
Ive used those lenses and they are sharp and all but fall between cine sexy and c200AF practical EFaf lenses or canon zooms which are just useful too (CNzooms)
The C200 is what it is - Id love one on a Movi sitting next to my FS7 on sticks - I think that could massively help your small productions/corporate
For small projects dont underate the swap time - its very easy to have Movi/Ronin never come out of the box
£18g camera?.. Id want that 'working' for me.. that is sitting in an established rental house - it needs to be treated as a working asset/investment like investing in wine, art shares or property... certainly Im not in the shoes to have £18g not getting me a proper ROI - its gotta pay off and profit before the FS9 comes out with 8k and 500fps - which will turn it into a doorstop.
My random thoughts are..
Movi+Wireless monitor + (C200AF OR remote focus unit is cool) - buy a fully pimped Movi today they are cool but only if you can see and focus even if it is on a jib
I dont think the canon glass gels somehow.. even EF mount could be a bit janky when torqued by a focus motor.. if you are being offered it cheap there is a reason.
Ive used those lenses and they are sharp and all but fall between cine sexy and c200AF practical EFaf lenses or canon zooms which are just useful too (CNzooms)
The C200 is what it is - Id love one on a Movi sitting next to my FS7 on sticks - I think that could massively help your small productions/corporate
For small projects dont underate the swap time - its very easy to have Movi/Ronin never come out of the box
£18g camera?.. Id want that 'working' for me.. that is sitting in an established rental house - it needs to be treated as a working asset/investment like investing in wine, art shares or property... certainly Im not in the shoes to have £18g not getting me a proper ROI - its gotta pay off and profit before the FS9 comes out with 8k and 500fps - which will turn it into a doorstop.
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indiawilds
Veteran
Just get a C700 FF.
I did look at that but they are not very suited to going on gimbals and need a extra recorder for Raw recording which is important to me. If they bought out a smaller version then I would be very tempted for sure. Same reason I discounted the Varicam LT which has a nice image also but no internal raw and bit big for gimbals.
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
Uhh, I know what you are getting at but Cinema RAW Light is a pretty professional format from which you derive any pro codec. Sure, PITA but a lot of people do just that. I am shooting two feature documentaries entirely in Cinema RAW Light and it looks very good.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I agree, C700FF would be terrible on a gimbal as would the Varicam LT, both are too heavy and beefy. Gimbals generally are better with much lighter, smaller cameras.
We can buy toys for work too... I'm guilty of it.
And I see many many others do it as well.
Are you 100% sure you're getting 100% out of your FS7? The FS7 is an extremely capable camera itself.
Watching your showreels I'd say the answer is no. And that you can still push yourself further with the FS7 and get more out of it.
Maybe there are better places your money can be put into rather than another camera?
Perhaps a few C stands / sandbags / floppies / cutters / appleboxes / gels / scrims / etc and just more lights in general to flesh out your lighting kit. Or more support gear like a danna dollly and easyrig. Perhaps more filters like a couple of ProMist 4x4?
Perhaps a Tilta wireless follow focus? And a wireless video feed together with a big director's monitor? And a smaller director's monitor with handles and a V mount on the back.
Also if you do a lot of OPC work, then you really do want to flesh out your audio kit (that will go further in getting more repeat work), as it is non-existent! (a NTG2 and a single G3 kit is nothing at all) Perhaps a Sanken CS3e + Sanken CSM1 with a couple of Sony UWP-D11 together with a boombuddy for a C stand (with a boom pole).
Tonnes of places you can invest your influx of new cash into rather than a new camera body.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
A used Arri Alexa Classic for around $8k on Ebay. Way better image than a Red at a much lower cost.
Gimbal footage looks bad on narrative films in most cases in my opinion. Steadicams can support heavy cameras.
Gimbal footage looks bad on narrative films in most cases in my opinion. Steadicams can support heavy cameras.
I think the old rule of thumb is just as valid as ever. Unless you can write out a realistic, viable business plan that shows a ROI on your investment then it's better to rent your equipment. There are plenty of situations where it's better to buy; yours may be one of them but don't assume it will be before you work through the numbers. Renting your gear also gives you more flexibility to match it exactly to the requirements of each job. If I was thinking of shooting an independent feature in the next eighteen months, I'd rent an Alexa, for sure
If I absolutely had to invest in my own equipment, I'd buy good quality glass before a new sensor. .
If I absolutely had to invest in my own equipment, I'd buy good quality glass before a new sensor. .
C200 is a nice camera but if you already have a FS7 why bother? FS7 is so much better. I wouldn't get a more expensive or bigger camera than a FS7 and if you are looking for higher budget jobs well then most equipment is rented.
In the end get the tools that does the job and puts money in your pocket.
In the end get the tools that does the job and puts money in your pocket.
indiawilds
Veteran
I agree with you. The one thing I learnt during my MBA days is that when you are a newbie you just go to the market, get the data and analyse and then take decision. Only when you have put in sufficient number of years you get that "gut feel". While shooting we often get the sense whether something will work for us or not. No one else can take that decision for us.
Frankly speaking if I had that kind of money like the OP, then I would have simply bought the C700FF as I know I can figure out a way to get the returns. I am also a contrarian in my approach. When people here were blasting the original C300, I borrowed one from Canon, tested it and then bought it. Even till date it is making me money. However, C700FF is three times the cost of a C300 and I only buy in cash. So it is a far cry.
The C700FF camera is not meant to be on gimbals. Use a camera according to its strengths. I don't often use shoulder mount. However, with C700 will go to the shoulder as well as tripod. There is something about that camera which I like, can't explain though.
There is also one more factor. Most of us really like what we do. We are lucky ones. We usually buy stuff just because it is also our hobby. Of course, it is not the most logical way of doing business. But look around. I bet you have couple friends with fancy cars, boats, motorcycle or even planes or whatever. Those things cost more than camera, even Gemini. And it will never make you money back. So, one could buy Gemini because of this reason.
I have never done this before but I can imagine that I would do that.
I have never done this before but I can imagine that I would do that.
Interesting point and quite true I guess.
Are clients demanding you rent better cameras than the FS7?
In my market, NYC (and the guys from LA say the same), the most in demand professional camera is the Alexa Mini. Expensive? Yes. It is a business investment. You can use it on a OMB (talk of overkill) to the biggest budget production anywhere in the world. It will have a longer shelf life than any Red or Canon or Sony.
I think the Mini will be the best professional contact builder. remember, you don't have to work as the dp to build contacts. you need to work ALOT and get to know producers/directors- cause down the line they always need to find a new dp, perhaps someone willing to work at a lower rate- but someone they can trust. Nothing like working on sets with someone to build a professional relationship.
In my market, NYC (and the guys from LA say the same), the most in demand professional camera is the Alexa Mini. Expensive? Yes. It is a business investment. You can use it on a OMB (talk of overkill) to the biggest budget production anywhere in the world. It will have a longer shelf life than any Red or Canon or Sony.
I think the Mini will be the best professional contact builder. remember, you don't have to work as the dp to build contacts. you need to work ALOT and get to know producers/directors- cause down the line they always need to find a new dp, perhaps someone willing to work at a lower rate- but someone they can trust. Nothing like working on sets with someone to build a professional relationship.