C200: Canon C200 Or Red Gemini

T

tomster

Member
Hi,

I have some money to spend due to an insurance settlement so I have a purchase decision to make and thought people might like to give me their 2 cents.

I can either go;
-------------------------------------------------------------
Canon C200
Movi Pro
Readyrig
Canon CN 14,24,35,50,85,135mm cine lenses
DJI Mavic Pro 2

Plus 7k credit to keep on my account for a rainy day.

or;
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Red Gemini -(using Atomos Shogun Flame HDR monitor with side handle for operation)
Movi Pro
Canon CN 24,50,85mm cine lenses.

Have to pay an extra 1k.

----------------------------------------------------------------

What do people think?

Here is a link to a blog I have made while testing the cameras and the raw workflows - http://tomjkelly.com/red-gemini-canon-c200-rawtest-fcpx/

I should have said that I already own a Sony FS7 which im super happy with for all corporate and documentary style work I do. I want this 2nd camera to be something that can help me grow as a visual filmmaker which I can use on commercials and the feature film project that I am shooting in the next 18months.

I formed a pro list for each camera in order of importance;

C200

1.Price
2.ND Filters built in
3.More physical buttons on body
4.Auto Focus
5. Smaller batteries that last longer and are allowed on aeroplanes.
6.Waveforms!!
7.EVF & Monitor comes with it.

Gemini

1. Image Quality
2. Slow Motion
3. Bigger sensor to make more use out of my full frame glass
4. Raw workflow build into FCPX and seems to work better.
5. Lowlight performance
6. Integration with Movi Pro
7. More rental potential
8. Smaller file sizes
9. Can use x2 anamorphic lenses


The reasons for the Shogun monitor is to first of all save money on Red screen and EVF £6k! As the screen can been seen in bright sunshine and i prefer using menus with buttons on side handle than on touch screen. Because I already own the Shogun it was the only way of getting close to affording the Gemini, Movi and cine lenses. I will test how that setup works before making a decision though.

FYI my equipment list is at the bottom of this page so you can see what I already have. http://tomjkelly.com/freelance-cinematographer/



Many Thanks

Tom
 
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If it's down to those two and nothing else - AND you can afford either and really don't need any extra money on a rainy day - AND plan on working for other people...don't even think about it and get the GEMINI.

The visual quality difference between the two is absolutely not worth the extra money for the RED, but unfortunately (fortunately?) the name on the camera is.

---

And if RAW is what you like working with (I didn't read your article)...RED, no question. Nothing better in the world on that end (IMO).
 
NorBro said:
If it's down to those two and nothing else - AND you can afford either and really don't need any extra money on a rainy day - AND plan on working for other people, don't even think about it and get the RED.

The quality difference between the two is absolutely not worth the extra money for the RED, but unfortunately (fortunately?) the name on the camera is.

---

And if RAW is what you're looking for, RED, no question. Nothing better in the world on that end (IMO).
Click to expand...

Yep. Just depends on the market segment/type of clients you're going after and what world you want to play in. My .02, you're going to "need" a lot more accessories(spend more $$$) to play in the RED world, too.
 
Simple, do you have ACs, shoot things where you can rehearse and block?

RED = crewed production - really boils down to traditional production. If you point your camera at things that are happening for your camera to capture, RED is great.
C200 = OMB, documentary and event. If you point your camera at things that are happening in the real world with no consideration of camera, C200 is sooo much better.

REDs completely are the wrong tool for OMB/documentary shooting (I tried it on my current doc and it was a frustrating experience), and the C200, while it can be dressed up with FF, matte box, etc. that is the natural domain of the RED.

As far as the end result, Cinema RAW Light versus RED .R3D, not that different in the end, you can grade and color correct C200 footage to look just as good as RED IMHO. But it's the getting the shot thing where the difference lies.
 
Nobody can answer without knowing what you're shooting.

Personally I'd take an F5/55 and a Cabrio 19-90 over either of those options, because that suits my work and market much better.

So, what are you intending to do with it?
 
deltoidjohn said:
Nobody can answer without knowing what you're shooting.

Personally I'd take an F5/55 and a Cabrio 19-90 over either of those options, because that suits my work and market much better.

So, what are you intending to do with it?
Click to expand...

Outside of "news", my main set-up is my F55 with Canon 17-120 sitting on it and a case of CN-E primes for the "pretty interviews". Although the 17-120 has shot many an interview...

When we went from Betacam to HD, we thought we'd never have another "Betacam" again. Well, the F55/5 has turned out to be one of the most versatile cameras we've ever had in this industry to date, period.
 
Of course we dont know what other bits you have.. like lighting and tripod.

--

Personally I would not dream of buying a C200 without buying some AF lenses.

I would not own a gimbal without a remote focus, remote monitor and directors monitor

I would always have a basic backup camera

I would never go on a shoot without being able to offer wider than S35 24 - you should have a 16 as a 'standard wide' (CNEs fall down here being repurposed canon class)
Even the Tonka 11-16

Skimming your blog decent HFR is super worth it IMO.

--

Its a funny business - I shot GH5s last week and.. it makes me want a Zcam E2.. how bad is the GH5s file?

There are so many options but I would certainly say if you are going to do something do it properly.. enough glass, enough batts, enough spare bits.

Lutted remote monitor for director is the biggest factor on getting a rebooking!


S
 
Run&Gun said:
Well, the F55/5 has turned out to be one of the most versatile cameras we've ever had in this industry to date, period.
Click to expand...

6 years on it's still the most requested cam in my market for anything above OMB gigs. I haven't been able to justify the purchase yet because on that level of job I'm usually AC, but I imagine anyone who bought one 6 years ago (that's ancient in modern camera terms!) has paid for it many times over.

Tomster - you need to ask yourself which will be most profitable as a business purchase. Will the work you're currently doing benefit from the Gemini over a C200? Will your current clients pay you a higher rate just because you bought a "better" camera? Do you have guaranteed new income sources that can be accessed by owning the Gemini? Or is it just prospective purchasing (ie maybe if I have a better camera I'll get better clients)?
 
deltoidjohn said:
Nobody can answer without knowing what you're shooting.

Personally I'd take an F5/55 and a Cabrio 19-90 over either of those options, because that suits my work and market much better.

So, what are you intending to do with it?
Click to expand...

Thanks guys. Good points.

I should have said that I already own a Sony FS7 which im super happy with for all corporate and documentary style work I do. I want this 2nd camera to be something that can help me grow as a visual filmmaker which I can use on commercials and the feature film project that I am shooting in the next 18months.

I'm starting to think after tests that the image from the C200 isn't a big enough jump from my FS7. The Gemini however is in another league and I didn't expect the IQ to be so much better than the C200. I expected better but not as much as it is. I think its down to better colour separation, micro contrast, amount of colours and the accuracy of the them. Its funny because I had a Scarlet W for a very short time a year ago and really wasn't that blown away by it. The Gemini as well as the Canon C200 seemed to throw out a very pleasing image without much work.

I formed a pro list for each camera in order of importance;

C200

1.Price
2.ND Filters built in
3.More physical buttons on body
4.Auto Focus
5. Smaller batteries that last longer and are allowed on aeroplanes.
6.Waveforms!!
7.EVF & Monitor comes with it.

Gemini

1. Image Quality
2. Slow Motion
3. Bigger sensor to make more use out of my full frame glass
4. Raw workflow build into FCPX and seems to work better.
5. Lowlight performance
6. Integration with Movi Pro
7. More rental potential
8. Smaller file sizes
9. Can use x2 anamorphic lenses


The reasons for the Shogun monitor is to first of all save money on Red screen and EVF £6k! As the screen can been seen in bright sunshine and i prefer using menus with buttons on side handle than on touch screen. Because I already own the Shogun it was the only way of getting close to affording the Gemini, Movi and cine lenses. I will test how that setup works before making a decision though.

FYI my equipment list is at the bottom of this page so you can see what I already have. http://tomjkelly.com/freelance-cinematographer/

Best

Tom
 
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morgan_moore said:
Of course we dont know what other bits you have.. like lighting and tripod.

--

Personally I would not dream of buying a C200 without buying some AF lenses.

I would not own a gimbal without a remote focus, remote monitor and directors monitor

I would always have a basic backup camera

I would never go on a shoot without being able to offer wider than S35 24 - you should have a 16 as a 'standard wide' (CNEs fall down here being repurposed canon class)
Even the Tonka 11-16

Skimming your blog decent HFR is super worth it IMO.

--

Its a funny business - I shot GH5s last week and.. it makes me want a Zcam E2.. how bad is the GH5s file?

There are so many options but I would certainly say if you are going to do something do it properly.. enough glass, enough batts, enough spare bits.

Lutted remote monitor for director is the biggest factor on getting a rebooking!


S
Click to expand...

Yeah, the CN-E's are based on their still counterparts(most of them), but different coatings, more aperture blades and the obvious mechanical differences. Also, they go to 14mm on the wide end(albeit slow at T3.1). And they just added, what I'm guessing is, a purpose built 20mm T1.5. They do not have a FF 20mm in their stills line-up that I'm aware of.

So, the CN-E's have actually become a pretty nice set, offering:
14, 20, 24, 35, 50, 85 and 135. And all but the 14 and 135 are either T1.3 or T1.5. The only thing that's probably kept them from wider adoption is not being available with a native PL mount(must be done third party aftermarket).
 
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Don’t want to throw a wet blanket on the fun (because having that much extra cash to buy some awesome new toys sounds amazing) but after reading your blog post and this post my first thought is: This is exactly the type of backstory I see in the classifieds section when someone is unexpectedly selling their entire camera package in mint condition.

My two cents:

If the main reason you’re buying this is for the feature, I’d wait til it’s green lit and locked on the schedule and that the story would specifically benefit from the capabilities of the camera you pick. 18 months is a long ways a way and a lot of things can happen between now and then (project changes, life changes, technology changes, price changes).

If the main reason is to change your style of working from OMB versatility to more traditional and intentional cinematography, then I would also “sign up for a gym membership” aka commit to as many narrative type projects as you can that will help force that change. From your blog it sounds like you’ve already had a go with Red and didn’t really enjoy the actual process of using it.

I don’t know what your long term goals are, but for me I have no desire to be lifetime DP, so I personally really enjoy using my C200 and autofocus lenses to get stunning quality in an extremely convenient way of shooting that comes natural to me and then for bigger projects that require more precision and experience I really enjoy sliding over to the director role and hiring a great DP that has thousands of hours of more experience and repetition operating in a more traditional way than me and then watching them work and learn new things from them to try myself - it’s as if your client is paying for your own training.
 
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rob norton said:
A movi pro is useless without a readyrig or something like it.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say useless but I do agree. The Readyrig is 100% the biggest sacrifice from getting the Gemini. Up to now I have been using a Ronin M with Sony A7R2 camera and light Sony lens. Movi Pro with Red plus Canon L zoom is gonna be a lot heavier im sure. Could probably do 1-2min takes though without issue. At least I can put this down easily rather than running back to wherever I left the Ronin stand!

I did see this cheaper alternative to the Readyrig but the fact you can only buy it on eBay makes me think its either not a good product or they are stealing the patent from Readyrig.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Proaim-Flexi-Rig-Pro-Camera-Gimbal-Support-ST-FLEXI-PRO/163192189035

Anyone used one of these?
 
Thanks for your input Chris. Although its not money I can spend on anything but camera gear so I would like to get something that complements the gear I already have. If I end up selling it then its not the end of the world as long as I get a few years out of it first including the feature (which is already funded so is 100% happening).

Best

Tom
 
Personally I hate those vests and 90% of the time my gimbal is mounted not on me but on a jib arm.
A heavt gimbal is not too bad for planned takes, well directed. IMO.
 
chris f said:
Don’t want to throw a wet blanket
Click to expand...

Yep Tom - Im not at all sure where you are going here. Toys for movies or tools for work?

Id say the raw image of the C200 is an upgrade to the FS7, the AF is potentially super useful. If the Reds have decent HFR then they are cool.
You should certainly be considering F5/55 and Varicam too - both feel like much more prectical work tools than a C200 or half pimped Red with a half set of glass.

Overall my stuff has got better in the last years with a focus puller and an A/C - you cant really be on a feature or owning a Movi Pro without a remote focus and monitor setup.

So - get a focus setup or a C200 and canon still glass!

But most of all you really need to nail exactly the sweet spot you are looking for.
 
morgan_moore said:
Well they just dont add up to me as a set. IMO one needs a 16 as fast as the rest of the set.
Click to expand...

Not sure I'd discount a whole line of lenses because they were missing one (wide) focal length. And I say this as a W/A junky. Obviously Canon doesn't have one, but neither do a lot of other well regarded mid-level lines: Sigma's cinema line: Nope. Tokina's cinema line: Nope. Schneider: Nope. Zeiss' CP.2's & CP.3's: Nope. To get a quality, fast 16mm prime, you've gotta get into Ultra Prime and Master Prime land. Rokinon was the only entry level 16mm prime I saw and at T2.2(s35) and T2.6(FF), it's over a stop slower than most of the rest of it's set, so gotta throw that out, too. ; )
 
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