Canon 7DmkII Dual Pixel AF Questions

NorBro

NorBro

Major Contributor
Hello,

Just wondering (all questions regarding video use)...

(1) In general, how well does the dual pixel AF work? Similar to a C100/300?

(2) Does it work well with non-Canon lenses such as the Sigma 18-35mm? Is it loud?

(3) How much faster/better does it work with STM lenses? What's the best STM lens you have used it with?

(4) I recently learned it's turned off using 1080/60P. Why? What about 720/60P?

(5) Is there anything else about it that's good to know?

I am looking for a very fast run-and-gun solution that can hold decent focus automatically.

Just out of curiosity, are there any other cameras with similar autofocus?

Thank you for your time and help.
 
Actually bought one today, so I'll answer my own questions in case anyone else wants to know.

(1) It works very well.

(2 & 3) It's really fast with the Sigma 18-35mm so I am assuming it's only better with STM lenses. But you need to use an external mic and keep it away from the camera.

(4) It's a real shame it doesn't work in 1080/60. It works in 720, but what's the point.

(5) No, but Magic Lantern...can you please hack the 7D Mark II???
 
I own a 7D Mark II + Sigma 18-35 F1.8 and it works great. Love it on the steadicam and on a tripod for interviews.

Here are a few points to know:
1) I tried the EF 40mm F2.8 STM lens and it did not focus faster but focused silently. Non-STM means you can hear the motor if you don't have an external microphone. Note that the EF 40mm F2.8 lens has really bad focus breathing whereas the Sigma 18-35 does not.
2) Dual Pixel AF has TWO main modes: [Servo AF ON] and [Servo AF OFF].

[Servo AF ON] has several submodes:

*Submode1: [Face Tracking] = tracks first face it sees. If it can recognize other faces in the room then there will be left-right arrows on the focus box so you can move the joystick left or right to move to the next face. However it does not show you which face it will move to next. So you need to guess where the box will jump to next. The C100 MKII and C300 I believe will mark all the faces it can recognize with a grey box so you know which faces you can toggle between. This mode defaults to [FlexZone Mode] if it cannot see any faces within the frame. Can toggle this mode to do object tracking as well (while recording video) by simply pressing the joystick button and moving it left, right, up or down. Note that this is not the same as [Spot Focusing] as it always wants to track an object.

*Submode2: [FlexZone Mode] = Randomly selects a pattern of phase detection points to adjust focus to. I would recommend avoiding this mode as what it chooses to focus on seems very random! Can manually select one of three zones by pressing the joystick and moving it left or right. The "zones" are divided into vertical thirds within the 16x9 frame.

*Submode3: [Spot Focus] = A stationary square on the screen. And anything that is within this square becomes in focus. The square is fairly large so you don't get fine control over what objects can be in focus. But as a general rule, the object the fills the square the most gets priority. You can move this square around the screen by pressing the joystick and moving it left, right, up or down. The square is larger for [Servo AF ON] than it is for [Servo AF OFF]. Not sure why this is.

Note that for all three submodes, when [Servo AF ON] is activated, the system will CONTINUALLY drive focus non-stop. You can however press and hold the [AF ON] button to lock focus or the [AF OFF] button the lock focus as well.
Here are the differences between [AF ON] and [AF OFF]:
[AF ON] = Will INSTANTLY drive focus to an object the square is on and then will lock the focus. Therefore [AF ON] will never lock focus on an out of focus object as focus needs to be driven first before being locked.
[AF OFF] = Will lock the focus even if the object is out of focus. This function DOES NOT drive focus.
Note that both [AF ON] and [AF OFF] need to be activated by keeping your finger firmly pressed on the button. This is unlike Sony where they give you the option of simply pressing the button once to hold focus, with Canon you need your finger firmly pressed on the button at all times to activate [AF ON] or [AF OFF] which is annoying in my opinion.

[AF OFF] by default is not pre-assigned to any buttons, you need to go into the custom menu and assign a button to it yourself.

When [SERVO AF ON] is activated AND if you are recording video, then you CANNOT switch between each submodes without STOPPING RECORDING. This is unlike Sony which allows you to switch between AF modes WHILE recording including face tracking mode.

The other mode is [SERVO AF OFF]. This means the camera WILL NOT continually drive focus non-stop. It requires the user to drive focus either via the focus ring or using the [AF ON] or half pressing the [SHUTTER BUTTON]. Note that all three submodes work when [SERVO AF OFF] is initiated, the difference is that the system will not drive focus automatically.

Note that in both [SERVO AF ON] and [SERVO AF OFF], when you half press the [SHUTTER BUTTON] or press the [AF ON] button, focus is driven INSTANTLY regardless of how slow you have preset the focus acceleration. You can not have a slow rack focus when you use the [AF ON] or use the half press of the [SHUTTER BUTTON]. To have a slower rack focus you need to let the [SERVO AF ON] take over.

Note also that you can de-assign the focus drive from the [SHUTTER BUTTON] and have it activate movie record only.

Note that under [SERVO AF OFF], when in submode [SPOT FOCUS], the focus square is much smaller than if you were in [SERVO AF ON] + [SPOT FOCUS]. Not sure why it is, but the smaller square allows you to be more precise as to which object you want to have in focus.

I definitely would sample the way Sony implements the Dual Pixel AF because they allow you to interface with it differently. For one, Sony allows you to change focus modes WHILE recording video whereas Canon does not. You may also want to look at the 70D as well. On the 70D you can deactivate [SERVO AF ON] by simply touching the touch screen icon and this can be done WHILE recording whereas the 7D Mark II does not allow you to do this. On the 7D Mark II you need stop video recording then enter into the menu to deactivate [SERVO AF ON]. So the 70D comes in handy for Steadicam operation as you can simply tap the screen. With Sony you can actually assign a hard button to switch between Manual Focus and Autofocus and this can be done WHILE recording video. So the 7D Mark II cripples this capability unfortunately.

One advantage with the 7D Mark II is they separate the Servo AF tweaking between Movie and Stills. So each Movie and Stills modes have their own set of local settings for how fast/slow/responsive the Servo focus is. On the 70D it has one setting for both Movie and Stills modes.

With regards to 720@60p. This mode is ok when you are doing medium or tight shots. You don't really see aliasing or moire in this case. But avoid wide and establishing shots at all costs as you will see tons of moire and aliasing. In a documentary setting, if you needed to switch between frame rates/resolution quickly, you can do so by pressing the Quick Menu button or [Q] button without needing to dive into the menu. But you do need to stop recording to do this though.

Does Dual Pixel AF have any weaknesses? Yes, when trying to focus on horizontal lines or a flat colored object. It has lots of trouble doing this. This is true for BOTH the 70D and 7D Mark II. Vertical lines are much better for some reason. Must be the way the focusing pixels are arranged? I also ran into focusing issues on keyboards. Must be because the keys are more spaced on the horizontal axis thereby making it look more like horizontal lines.
 
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That's very detailed and helpful. Thank you.

Just a simple question, can I just set the camera to focus only once I choose an area with the joystick + press a button and it goes there slowly/organically? This could be the next documentary/reality/wedding/event videography trick in making thousands of shooters happy and producing s35 film like focus puller look to their modest projects without even thinking about it.

Everyone seems to be interested in tracking and continuous focus (which is fine and useful but I don't will gain access to professional environments), what I really have an interest in is a camera that I can: Pick an area, press AF, it goes there fast and smooth, then record, and then whilst recording: pick another area, press AF, and it goes there fluidly. Sort of Automatically-aided manual focus pulling operation.

The 70D does this for sure and it does it very intuitivily by having the touchscreen but the video quality is terrible vs the 7D MKII (and vs pretty much every other camera in 2013-2015)

Does the same mode exist in the 7D (''Manual'' AF) and if it does how hard is it to choose a point with the joystick? Does it make any sound? is it slow to move, the same speed one would move the focus box with a joystick on a previous Canon or faster/different (that was slow and sluggish unless you install ML to make it fluid and 3x faster to move) Does the AF button make a sound after then? These are all avoided by just having the touch function in the 70D so I wonder how this one does.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
That's very detailed and helpful. Thank you.

Just a simple question, can I just set the camera to focus only once I choose an area with the joystick + press a button and it goes there slowly/organically? This could be the next documentary/reality/wedding/event videography trick in making thousands of shooters happy and producing s35 film like focus puller look to their modest projects without even thinking about it.

Everyone seems to be interested in tracking and continuous focus (which is fine and useful but I don't will gain access to professional environments), what I really have an interest in is a camera that I can: Pick an area, press AF, it goes there fast and smooth, then record, and then whilst recording: pick another area, press AF, and it goes there fluidly. Sort of Automatically-aided manual focus pulling operation.

The 70D does this for sure and it does it very intuitivily by having the touchscreen but the video quality is terrible vs the 7D MKII (and vs pretty much every other camera in 2013-2015)

Does the same mode exist in the 7D (''Manual'' AF) and if it does how hard is it to choose a point with the joystick? Does it make any sound? is it slow to move, the same speed one would move the focus box with a joystick on a previous Canon or faster/different (that was slow and sluggish unless you install ML to make it fluid and 3x faster to move) Does the AF button make a sound after then? These are all avoided by just having the touch function in the 70D so I wonder how this one does.
Click to expand...

It works just like the 70D minus the touch screen and minus the ability to tap the screen to enable/disable [SERVO AF].

On both the 70D and 7D Mark II, when you manually drive the lens via [AF ON] or half pressing the [SHUTTER BUTTON] the lens will drive focus instantly - like a snap focus pull. There is no way to change the speed of the rack focus unless you use [SERVO AF ON] and allow the system to automatically do it. This is unfortunate as this is not a true manual focus pull.

You can hack this on the 70D by using the touch screen to tap between [SERVO AF OFF] and [SERVO AF ON] however.

And yes you get one push auto focus (snap focuses one time only) when ALL of the following are activated:
[SERVO AF OFF] = yes
AND
[FACE TRACKING] = yes OR [FLEXZONE] = yes OR [SPOT FOCUS]= yes
AND
[AF ON] = yes OR half pressing [SHUTTER BUTTON] = yes

How hard is it to choose a point with the joystick? Well you just move the joystick around. Obviously it is slower than tapping a touch screen. It is unfortunate they did not have a touch screen on the 7D Mark II.
Here are the times it takes to move the focus box from one side of the screen to the other:
[FACE TRACKING] = 5 seconds
[FLEXZONE] = 1 second (each box is a third of the screen, so there are only three positions to move the square to)
[SPOT FOCUS] = 5 seconds (this is true for both [SERVO AF ON] and [SERVO AF OFF], if you recall the focus box changes size depending on which SERVO mode you are in, but this does not affect the joystick scroll time)
 
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ectobuilder - thank you very much!

I had 12 hours with the 7DkmkII today and learned absolutely everything you mentioned. I don’t know what it is about Canon DSLRs, but I love them (started with a T3i back in the day).

The Sigma 18-35mm is an amazing lens, but now after seeing how it works with the 7D with the dual pixel AF…just unbelievable. This lens should be more expensive, ha.

I was actually thinking about getting the 40mm or the 24mm…good to know about the breathing.

The only difference I found in your notes is about the modes…not sure if it’s a firmware thing.

Mode 2 for me is FlexiZone - Multi and it only has 2 options as far as the box goes:

(a) Wide Rectangle almost covering the entire frame.
(b) Square that can be moved to the left, middle or right.

I actually found this mode very effective and super fast and accurate, but I also used mode 3 a lot too.

My only question is about the AF OFF. I believe I can only set it to one or two buttons…not any button I would like. Is that correct? Ideally, I would like to set it to the M-Fn button, but I cannot.

Off-topic - you aren’t able to produce a timelapse in the live view mode, right? I can’t seem to enable it this way, so I am assuming no. And I looked at the 70D, but no 1080/60P. And holding the button is super annoying. Wish you could just press it to lock/unlock focus.
 
NorBro said:
ectobuilder - thank you very much!
Click to expand...
- You are most welcome!
- PDAF on DSLR/mirrorless is one of my pet peeves/passions/curiosities at the moment and I am still waiting until they do it right for filmmakers!! So glad that I could expedite your learning today.

NorBro said:
The Sigma 18-35mm is an amazing lens, but now after seeing how it works with the 7D with the dual pixel AF…just unbelievable. This lens should be more expensive, ha.
Click to expand...
- Yes this lens is totally worth every penny. I love the fact that it has a close focusing distance at every focal length, closer than any zoom I've used, although maybe 1-2cm off from an actual prime, but still a good compromise! I also love that it has a constant zoom barrel; this is great for steadicam work so that you can zoom in and out without disturbing the balance of the steadicam rig. And of course the constant F1.8!

NorBro said:
The only difference I found in your notes is about the modes…not sure if it’s a firmware thing.


Mode 2 for me is FlexiZone - Multi and it only has 2 options as far as the box goes:

(a) Wide Rectangle almost covering the entire frame.
(b) Square that can be moved to the left, middle or right.
Click to expand...
- Yes I used a Sony terminology to describe "[FLEXZONE + SQUARE]". I called this [SPOT FOCUS] As it sounds more intuitive than [FLEXZONE SINGLE].
- Canon terminology = [FLEXZONE SINGLE]
- My terminology (similar to Sony terminology) = [SPOT FOCUS]

NorBro said:
My only question is about the AF OFF. I believe I can only set it to one or two buttons…not any button I would like. Is that correct? Ideally, I would like to set it to the M-Fn button, but I cannot.
Click to expand...
- Yes you are correct. I wish Canon would wake up and allow us to assign any button to 99% of all functions like Sony does!

NorBro said:
Off-topic - you aren’t able to produce a timelapse in the live view mode, right? I can’t seem to enable it this way, so I am assuming no. And I looked at the 70D, but no 1080/60P. And holding the button is super annoying. Wish you could just press it to lock/unlock focus.
Click to expand...
- I've not tried the timelapse function

//==========//
A FEW MORE NOTES:
I forgot to mention that while recording if you need to fully disable the AF, you can do so by setting the switch on the lens to [MF], this will produce a click sound however.. This will however also kill all SERVO functions including the [AF-ON] function.

Also be sure to try to experience the limitations of the AF as horizontal lines and low light can be an issue for it.

I'm still waiting to see how the A7RII performs, because that could be a 7D Mark II killer. In APS-C mode, the 399 PDAF pts may cover 80%+ of the cropped image sensor thus giving us something similar to the 7D Mark II!
 
ectobuilder said:
- You are most welcome!
- PDAF on DSLR/mirrorless is one of my pet peeves/passions/curiosities at the moment and I am still waiting until they do it right for filmmakers!!
Click to expand...

The DPAF is my new passion, haha. Some of the run-and-gun work I do can be so stressful and difficult because multiple things may happen quickly and even all at once that manual focusing is just not ideal. After looking at over 750 clips from a recent shoot, the continuous AF nailed 95% of my shots in the 2 modes (I still haven't tried face tracking yet). Although, it's worth mentioning it was all outside (lots of light).

What other lenses have you used with it that work well?

I was looking at this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1051476-USA/canon_9519b002_ef_s_10_18mm_f_4_5_5_6_is.html

P.S. - would you have any samples of the 40mm breathing?
 
NorBro said:
The DPAF is my new passion, haha. Some of the run-and-gun work I do can be so stressful and difficult because multiple things may happen quickly and even all at once that manual focusing is just not ideal. After looking at over 750 clips from a recent shoot, the continuous AF nailed 95% of my shots in the 2 modes (I still haven't tried face tracking yet). Although, it's worth mentioning it was all outside (lots of light).

What other lenses have you used with it that work well?

I was looking at this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1051476-USA/canon_9519b002_ef_s_10_18mm_f_4_5_5_6_is.html

P.S. - would you have any samples of the 40mm breathing?
Click to expand...

I've used the 70D with the 24 F1.4L II and it works really great, I would assume the 7D Mark II would work just as well.

As with Face Tracking, it really only seems to work well on tight shots. If you are doing a wide shot, the eyes need to be clear to the system. If there are other objects that appear as eyes then it may get confused. Also quick movements of the camera can make the system not track well. As per DPReview's article on the A7RII, perhaps the readout of the 7D Mark II is too slow? The A7RII with native e-mount lenses seem to work best in these cases.

And I will post a test shot I did. Will post a link on this thread. Most likely tomorrow night.
 
Here's Dan Chung's quick review of the A7RII (pre-production model). He didn't seem to have too much time with the unit so he may have screwed up on some of the tests, but based on what I saw it looks like the continuous AF looks horrible.

It seems to want to finish the focus drive with contrast detection hunting. Extremely horrific. This is with and without half-pressing the shutter / AF-ON button.

Canon seems to do a better job and Dan seems to agree.

http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/07/...sions-hands-on-with-the-surprising-4k-camera/
 
I think it is too early to infer anything, aside the fact there are several settings and face tracking, as for instance, seems to guarantee the job.
 
Sony, and in fact every other manufacturer, do not do usable AF with a large sensor video camera, just Canon's Dual Pixel AF. The 70D, 7D MKII, C100 MKI + DPAF upgrade, C300 MKI + DPAF upgrade, C100 MKII and C300 MKII.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
Sony, and in fact every other manufacturer, do not do usable AF with a large sensor video camera, just Canon's Dual Pixel AF. The 70D, 7D MKII, C100 MKI + DPAF upgrade, C300 MKI + DPAF upgrade, C100 MKII and C300 MKII.
Click to expand...
I am done with Canon. I've been their customer since 5DII for video, at least. Side by side to stills for once (RED DSMC concept but on real lightweight part of the game).

They still release cameras protecting their high-end more than any other manufacturer (à la old Sony school : D) Especially when they invented their C-line, actually a good surprise to them pre-2008 beyond any predictable expectations from their own. Without mention to start to cripple their tech as straight as ever before (as much we can find from ML experience). Or their traditional approach to go technologically further.

To me and lots of people everywhere, they are Sony from 90s. For some reason, Sony lost the share of their market the next decade. I believe Canon is a great company and with good products for sure. But competition will start to hit them hard. Mirrorless market is only an example.

As far as AF concerns, some AF face tracking tests on Sony side I've seen are not so bad as Canon lovers hint. It doesn't serve the fact Canon's Dual Pixel AF is better. I mean, neighbour's car can be much faster and expensive of mine and my car to somehow handle my needs for me. I still meant, as far as my AF needs concerns.
 
A6000 and A77II have a pretty good video/continuous AF and I don't see why a much more advanced A7RII wouldn't.

As to Canon and Sony crippling, it seems to be the nature of the photo-video biz.
 
DLD said:
A6000 and A77II have a pretty good video/continuous AF and I don't see why a much more advanced A7RII wouldn't.

As to Canon and Sony crippling, it seems to be the nature of the photo-video biz.
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Indeed. The point to me is Canon's attitude of nowadays, trying to infer 4K is only for expensive shooters, when tech is available out there.

As disclaimer, I must say I am their loyal customer (I will be receiving two large format printers this week, that is, their 44" Plotter model, so I guess this speaks by itself) and their products are top -- with no mention of several feature films I've produced with their cameras, I just think they should listen the market more than their belly buttons, that's all. The recent 5DS on the video side lacking 4K is just a simple example of that. Fortunately, Panasonic and Sony have pushed the envelope.

E :-)
 
If Panasonic and Sony pushed the envelope...BMD threw it several miles.

But Canon's got a spell on me too!
 
Emanuel said:
Apples to oranges. A whole other price range. Canon charges there their share in your business. As simple as that.
Click to expand...

The 7D Mark II's Dual Pixel AF implementation is very similar to the C300 II.

Advantage's of the C300 II's Dual Pixel AF are:
- It places boxes around each face it recognizes (the 7D Mark II simply gives you left and right arrows which signals to you to use the joystick to move to the next face, but we need to guess which face it goes to next).
- You can change the focus speed and reaction time for face tracking (7D Mark II cannot, but only for the Flexizone Single mode).
- Manual rack focus assist (this is a really cool feature).
- You can set focus priority (face vs object).
 
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