Can the HVX work within a F900 or Varicam Project?

S

SquidLips

Well-known member
What would be the immediate difference should a project being shot on the F900 or varicam use footage also shot on the HVX at it's best resolution? I imagine it would not be a seamless blend as we have compressed and uncompressed and lens choice and all. But could it be used for something like a flashback, etc. and not be a giant change in quality?

I shot a film on super 16mm and had a few flashbacks shot on super 8mm. It played well as there was a difference in grain, etc. but the two mediums could still work together.

Thanks.
 
We really have no way to judge the picture quality of the HVX yet... only a few folks have seen images, 1080i, and from a non production camera. Also remember that the F900 image when recorded to tape is compressed as well... 1440 by 1080 3:1:1 as opposed to DVCPRO HD 1280 by 1080 4:2:2.

The big differences will be the quality and sharpness of the lens used on the F900 and also the larger chip size... greater light sensitivity and a D.O.F. equiv. closer to 16mm.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
 
Jim Arthurs said:
We really have no way to judge the picture quality of the HVX yet... only a few folks have seen images, 1080i, and from a non production camera. Also remember that the F900 image when recorded to tape is compressed as well... 1440 by 1080 3:1:1 as opposed to DVCPRO HD 1280 by 1080 4:2:2.

The big differences will be the quality and sharpness of the lens used on the F900 and also the larger chip size... greater light sensitivity and a D.O.F. equiv. closer to 16mm.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
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will the color from the professional cameras be much better also?
 
FatBird19 said:
will the color from the professional cameras be much better also?
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Good question!

Jim Arthurs said:
1440 by 1080 3:1:1 as opposed to DVCPRO HD 1280 by 1080 4:2:2.
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And about DVCPRO HD 1440x1080@25P? A real resolution increase? Noticeable @35mm film-out?

Jim Arthurs said:
(...)and a D.O.F. equiv. closer to 16mm.
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Point solved with a 35mm adapter like Guerilla35?
 
Why does everybody asume that the HVX footage must match the big cams for a mix. You could always degrade the best cam to look like the "worst" cam.
 
After watching a bit of 'Land of Plenty', which was shot with the DVX100AE, I expect much more out of the HVX.
 
This is one of the big selling points for panny. So I think that should work just fine. A trained eye will see the difference though.
Panasonic is advertising this camera as a possible B-cam on varicam productions, so it would be pretty lame if it turned out to be useless for that. Offcourse the use will be somewhat limited (lens, ccd size) but that's like kicking in an open door isn't it?
 
FatBird19 said:
will the color from the professional cameras be much better also?
Click to expand...

Color is the end result of everything in the chain of the signal... the quality of the lens, the dsp inside the camera, the noise floor of the chips, the way the color is recorded to the media (4:2:2 vrs 3:1:1 vrs 4:1:1) etc. Again, we will have to wait and see. I can give you my impressions of two real world examples that may help to qualify this a bit;

Before I purchased my DVX100 I was able to see a 35mm film-out of the DVX, followed by film out from a Sony 700, followed by a Sony 900. The DVX footage was available light night stuff and after a few minutes you got used to it, I remember thinking "yeah, you can tell a movie with this!" Then the 700 footage came on... night and day, even with the frame blending of fields via the Teranex used to pre-process it before film out. Much sharper, clearer, etc. And THEN the 900 footage, another leap in quality!

Another test I did was an A/B comparison of the 700 and the little Sony Z1U both pointing at the same subject, both hooked up to the same monitor. First was the Z1, and everyone liked what they saw... good contrast, color, sharpness... then with the flick of the switch we were looking at the 700... MUCH sharper, richer colors with less bleed.

You can get used to watching the footage from any of these cameras in a controlled setting, but seeing apples to apples comparisons will always point out the difference in quality/price.

I have no doubt the HVX will be the best looking HD camcorder in its class. I have no doubt you can make movies with it to play in any venue and reflect favorably on you. What is unknown is the gap between it and the true high-end cameras... there will be a gap, but only time will tell what the actual difference will be...

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
 
SquidLips said:
What would be the immediate difference should a project being shot on the F900 or varicam use footage also shot on the HVX at it's best resolution?
Click to expand...

In their new full-page ad in DV magazine, December issue, Page 5, Panasonic gives their position on your question. If you haven't seen the ad, looking from above it shows an HVX laying on a table next to a media industry trade magazine classified ad page. The obviously freelance owner of the HVX has circled in yellow the freelance jobs he/she wants to apply for. There are 18 different ads the HVX owner has circled. Two of those eighteen ads circled are ones that apply to your question are:

"Extreme Sports Videographer - Second camera needed for Varicam shoot...".
"Short Film/HD Shoot - HDCAM second camera. Shooting 1080p at 24....".

So, Panasonic has officially suggested the HVX as a second camera for Varicam and HDCAM shoots. There's two possibilities: 1) It's "marketspeak", Panasonic is wrong, and will look foolish to the production world for suggestion those uses. 2) Panasonic is right, and when the HVX is released and tested, they will be proven right on the matter.

My guess is that #2 will be the case…

Of the readable ads circled on the page, here's a list of all of the uses of the HVX suggested by Panasonic in the ad:

1) DP for indie film in 24p.
2) Movie of the week shooting in ___p at 24fps.
3) HD Sports Special for Major Cable Channel - shooting 720p at 60 fps.
4) Extreme Sports Videographer - second camera needed for Varicam shoot.
5) Cinematographer for Wildlife Production - 60 minute HD documentary - shooting 720p/24 on DVCProHD.
6) Short Film/HD shoot - HDCAM second camera. Shooting 1080p at 24.
7) News Photogs for Cable News Channel, experience in shooting DVCPRO50
8) HD "B" Roll for Stock House - shooting 1080p/24 or 720p at 24.
9) SD Reality Adventure - shoot from 60i to 24p to deliver different looks.
10) HD Music Videos - Shooting 720p24. Must be familiar with variable frame rates.
11) News Stringer - Looking for shooters...
12) Videographer - shooting 480 _____ or DV.
13) HD Television Special. Cameraman/Editor wanted ___ 1080i at 30 fps on DVCPROHD using P2 cards.
14) New Reality Show - Shooting 720____24/30fps, Experience in HD and variable frame rates required.
15) HD Commercial Production Co. - Looking for cameraman with HD experience. Shooting 24/30fps.
16) Filmmaker to join Faculty...

( the other two circled ads are unreadable)

Analysis of the uses suggested for the HVX by Panasonic in the ad:

Strictly cine-style applications: #'s 1, 2, 6, 16 (4 total)

Both cine-style and ENG-style applications: #'s 5, 8, 10, 13, 14 (5 total)

Strictly ENG-style applications: #'s 3, 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14 (7 total)

Projects to be shown as "films": #'s 1, 6, 16 (3 total)

The HVX is positioned as an all-around, versatile camera that may be a freelancers dream camera, especially when the cost of P2 comes down. It straddles the cine-style and ENG-style production worlds. It emphasizes the media convergence need for shooters to be versatile enough to shoot either style of production, and to have the accessories to outfit the HVX for either style of shooting.

--------------------------

Summary

Either Panasonic is using advertising "puffery" or the HVX will truly be the "Swiss Army Knife" of the HD & SD production world - the most versatile camcorder ever manufactured. I simply don't see Panasonic as being foolish enough to make all of the above usage claims if the HVX cannot deliver as advertised. Very shortly the HVX will be delivered and tested, and I predict the HVX will perform as advertised, and that seasoned professional users, both cine-style and ENG-style, will devise many, many more ways to integrate the HVX in production uses that aren't even on the list above...

--------------------------

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
SquidLips said:
What would be the immediate difference should a project being shot on the F900 or varicam use footage also shot on the HVX at it's best resolution? I imagine it would not be a seamless blend as we have compressed and uncompressed and lens choice and all. But could it be used for something like a flashback, etc. and not be a giant change in quality?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

as stated earlier no one knows exactly how much different HVX footage will look than Varicam footage but what you are proposing is already explicitly stated by Panasonic in their promo DVD and by Jan at both of the tradeshow talks i've seen her at.

the ad the Gibby mentions is the first i've seen it suggested as a second cam to HDCAM footage. this makes me have fantasies of multipurpose HD capture delight. *tickles self*
 
Hi,

I have seen in a number of cases where the DVX was used within an SDX900 shoot, now they did not cut between cameras, they kept the scene strictly to that camera and the it swtched to a another establishing shot, perfect transition. No one noticed. Seen the same this with the DVX and the Varicam. Upconverstion to the HD format and the scene again, complete, and then went back to the big footage, worked very well. Would I ever suggest that it is a two camera shoot and that you cut from one camera to the other, nope wouldn't suggest that.

I would suggest that if you do what the little cameras are good at, close-ups, medium shots, and combine that with bigger shots and scenics, yes I think the small cameras can be used very effectively with the larger cameras. Seen it done, it can work.


Best all,

Jan
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
I would suggest that if you do what the little cameras are good at, close-ups, medium shots, and combine that with bigger shots and scenics, yes I think the small cameras can be used very effectively with the larger cameras. Seen it done, it can work.
Click to expand...

Or if 2/3" cameras, removable lenses, shallow DOF, etc. were not critical for the genre/style of production, which is the case for many of the production genres in your ad, whether it be in HD or SD, there's always the option of not using the larger cameras, and simply using multiple HVX's.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
I have seen in a number of cases where the DVX was used within an SDX900 shoot, now they did not cut between cameras, they kept the scene strictly to that camera and the it swtched to a another establishing shot, perfect transition. No one noticed. Seen the same this with the DVX and the Varicam. Upconverstion to the HD format and the scene again, complete, and then went back to the big footage, worked very well. Would I ever suggest that it is a two camera shoot and that you cut from one camera to the other, nope wouldn't suggest that.
Click to expand...

We've intercut well-shot DVX footage with SDX900 footage many times. It worked quite well. That's a 4:1:1 DV to 4:2:2 DVCPRO50 intercut. We've also intercut well-shot DVX b-roll for short look back sequences with Varicam footage, similar to how you suggested. That's a 4:1:1 standard def (DV) intercut with a 4:2:2 high def (DVCPROHD) intercut - a little more of a challenge. In intercutting HVX 720p footage with a Varicam, there is no SD to HD uprez situation like your DVX to SDX900 example. Both cameras would be shooting 720p. Seems like the difference should be less than the DVX/SDX intercut. Using an HVX in 1080/24p to intercut with HDCAM - again there is no uprez situation from SD, since the HVX would be shooting in 1080/24p. No doubt there would be a difference in lens performance, etc., but It's going to be interesting to see the results of intercutting the HVX with other higher-end cameras. As a longtime user of Varicams and the SDX900, It's going to be nice to have a small form factor camera to bring on location for certain types of shots...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
Hi Steve,

I can only address what I saw at IBC, and that was the two cameras, the HVX and the VariCam and they were close to each other and there were many that compared them. I would offer the same advice that that I offered to guys that do that same thing from DVX to SDX or DVX to VariCam or SDX and Varicam. Keep the scene complete, don't go from one to the other, keep the camera focused on things that it will do nicely and it will be fine. Never would I say use the small camera on the wide scenic. I don't even suggest that if staying with the DVX.

Anyhow I know a number of guys that own VariCams that have the HVX on order for the complimentary footage, in small camera form.

Best,

Jan
 
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