Camtree FS700 Rig/Cage - the indian knockoff of the Movcam Rig

point made.....you're entitled to your opinion....

the thing is, new film makers don't have the life experience to accurately represent life. Do you remember where the old film makers came from? The Humphrey Bogarts both on the stage and behind the cameras? People, directors, craftspeople, actors who came to the business with life experience on the streets. and they made movies and films of moral and ethical value. Not this unrealistic violence displayed on modern film. And all that does is create an unrealistic picture of reality to young film-goers.

No, times have changed.....maybe one good thing to come out of all this atrocious happenings in the Middle east will produce a slew of filmakers with real life experience...the horror of war...not the fantasy of a video game. The trauma and tragedy of losing an arm or a leg, or two legs, or a father for political reasons...that's the bulls*&$%t!

Where are the Edward R Murrows who experienced the tragedy and reported it?
 
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cuervo said:
point made.....you're entitled to your opinion....

the thing is, new film makers don't have the life experience to accurately represent life. Do you remember where the old film makers came from? The Humphrey Bogarts both on the stage and behind the cameras? People, directors, craftspeople, actors who came to the business with life experience on the streets. and they made movies and films of moral and ethical value. Not this unrealistic violence displayed on modern film. And all that does is create an unrealistic picture of reality to young film-goers.

No, times have changed.....maybe one good thing to come out of all this atrocious happenings in the Middle east will produce a slew of filmakers with real life experience...the horror of war...not the fantasy of a video game.

Where are the Edward R Murrows who experienced the tragedy and reported it?
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You're getting it all backward. There's plenty of film makers out there with real life experience (it may have escaped your notice, but there's a fair few thousand veterans of recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan around these days, for example, and some of them have cameras) the problem is that the audiences for the films you're talking about don't exist. Or rather, they're not prepared to pay to consume the end product, so they don't get made.

The stories are out there, it's just that the money has gone to Google. That's the stuff you learn about when you talk to TV commissioning editors and film distributors.
 
Colinelves said:
.... the problem is that the audiences for the films you're talking about don't exist. Or rather, they're not prepared to pay to consume the end product, so they don't get made.

The stories are out there, it's just that the money has gone to Google. That's the stuff you learn about when you talk to TV commissioning editors and film distributors.
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well, you're right on, there, Colin. No argument from moi.
 
cuervo said:
Times change, things never stay the same. Adapt or die...that's the entreprenurial way, Colin. Things aren't the same way as they were 2 decades ago. Like it or not. Many lives were ruined by the RIAA, and I have no sympathy for them. (Jim Fogarty-Credence Clearwater comes to mind)It's all about the profit motive, whether it's music or airplanes. And the human factor is an expendable item...not. Not in my book . anyway. The artistic, creative person is, generally, the one who suffers, because a business ethic and a creative ethic don't coexist. So, think what you will, oil and water don't mix.
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And people are dying, quite literally (there's a fair few musicians that commit suicide each year, Sparklehorse is just one notable example) - the thing is, society is aware that certain products need protection from unfair competition and copying. Pharmaceuticals is the most obvious example - the massive R&D costs of developing new drugs means they have to be protected from copy cats for a limited time period to allow them the opportunity to recoup these costs. without these protections it would be uneconomic to develop new drugs. Society realises it wants new drugs, so it decides to offer them the protection they seek. If society ultimately feels it values professional musicians (or other content professional creators) eventually society is going to have to realise they need to offer them some reasonable form of income protection - otherwise they'll all be lost - be that through proper IP protection and enforcement (which it is certainly possible to do - if Google can copy and categorise the whole internet, they sure as **** can work out which bits are gateways to illegal downloads), or through government subdues (like the system they have in France) or through enforced subscription services like the performing rights society system in the UK.
 
...as for myself, and the age-old arguments about what constitutes a "professional" and what doesn't.....
I am blessed because of my career, that I can make films of value, films that help other human beings.....and I can do it pro-bono.....
because most of the people I help can't afford a decent house or car, and they "aspire" for the passion of their craft......so, I won't argue with you over what makes a professional...it's an old and very worn out argument. All i know is that people appreciate me and what I do for them...and that's enough for me. and you never know when something I've done might show up.....like i said.....if it's profit motivated, nope, you'll probably never see something I made. But the children and people who learn from what I give them, it's worth more than anything I could ever want to be paid.

And, not that it matters, but some of the more well known people I've worked with, or on, include Richard Benjamin(Goodbye Columbus), Wes Studi(Dances with Wolves), Christopher Lloyd(Back to the Future), Dean Stockwell(Boy with the Green Hair), Waldemar Kalinowski(Fast and the Furious), Edward Carfagno(Ben Hur), Lew Lee, Peter Lamont(007 films), Jon Moritsugu, Joanna Lovetti(The Sopranos), Gail Yasunaga(Searching for Debra Winger)...et al...
P.S. I do NOT condone piracy, theft, cloning, stealing creative property in any form or fashion.

In the end, when all is said and done, it isn't how much I made, or how much status I earned, it's about who I've loved and who loves me, Colin. That's all that really matters to me.
 
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cuervo said:
It's a jungle, Mitch.....just sayin'....
and consumers vote with their wallets. Not sayin' stealing intellectual property is right. Just sayin' it's gonna happen....and people will buy it or they wouldn't do it. For years, the price of something like a follow focus rig or a mattebox was exhorbitant. After some foreign manufacturers entered the market, I.E. cinevate or whatever, the price has dropped significantly. And I wonder about the ethics of the companies that charged thousands for hardware(Chroziel?) that you can get, now, for hundreds.....

We could really take this to political extremes, but, what's the point. As long as cheap overseas labor can make a quality product for less than a US manufacturer, guess who's gonna fluorish? And since the USA seems to have abandoned import tariffs, it's not a level playing field. I think it's called NAFTA. yaddah, yaffah, yaddah

(By the way, when I say "knockoffs" I don't mean stolen designs, I refer to independently designed stuff, but sold at a fraction of the cost of the good old boys who have overcharged for years.)

All in all, a very interesting discussion. A few years back the music industry and their Borg representatives in the RIAA tried to stop pirating music property. That's a very appropriate example. It isn't that they weren't within their rights, it's just that they were just as immorally culpable as the pirates. In the end, the RIAA decided to approach things in a very zen manner, and now, I suspect they're making more $$ than when they sold ceramic/plastic disks.

In the present case, it's damn hard to say a machined and anodized piece of aluminum can be considered proprietary. It's like trying to patent nails, or SAE screws. Literally, ANYBODY with an NC mill can pop these things out by the hundreds, for next to nothing. And I wonder what the profit margin is on some of this stuff.

If anyone thinks we got piracy problems now, just wait until 3D printing really gets going.
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Deep breath.....(I have recently posted a similar piece on the F35 thread). I am going to skip the majority of the details, but this is a excerpt from my life as a manufacturer.

I have have been on all sides of this discussion. I have spent a little over 2 decades as sound guy, shooter, big jobs, small jobs, film, digital, etc.... then started a rental house.....now, for the past 6 years I have been manufacturing gear for digital cinema. My inspiration for getting into manufacturing was because I had spent so many years feeling taking advantage of and ripped off by the likes of Chrosziel, ARRI, Aaton, Sony, Mole Richardson, American grip, Lectrosonics, and seemingly endless other staples of the the industry. "This is only like, $10 worth of aluminum" I told myself for years. I went to school for engineering. Why would I spend another dime on this overpriced gear?

Sold the rental company. Bought a mill. To my complete surprise - the mill just sat there. I did not make anything at all. It needed enormous amounts of talent, patience, tools, tool holders, saws, and on and on. The first year was spent going through a few software packages and a massive learning curve. Biggest lesson is that CNC's never make the same part twice. I think that year subtracted a decade from my life. Total cost for first year - $250k and the mill only cost $50k. A mill is like having a camera body and a dream of making a movie. The expenses just keep on coming. That year was just me, no employees and no paycheck.

After getting the initial year behind me, I realized that a 3 axis machine is way too slow and limiting to get any real work done. I upgraded to 5 axis which requires even more software (To date I have spent about $40k on software for CAD/CAM). Started making more sophisticated parts and needed to hire people. Move into a bigger building. Getting insurance for a machine shop is comically expensive. Every job and product was building on the previous and we were getting by, but maxed out. I bought another 5 axis machine hired more people and made even less money in the process.

Wait, what? Making less money? I thought manufacturing was easy money where we can charge exorbitant prices for modest amounts of work. ANYBODY that spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on a CNC mill program can make parts for "next to nothing".Simple. Here is the reality. It is a total pain in the ass and far more difficult than any production related job I have ever been involved in. The cost of the products is about 1-5% raw materials. Maybe 2% milling machines. The rest is labor, tools, failed products, trade shows, R&D, buildings, electricity, and on and on. The cost of sales is around 35% or more.

I made substantially more money as a sound guy in the early 90's. As my business grows more mature, it has to "pay back" the many years of losses, 80 hour weeks, and incredible stresses. So if I find myself lucky enough to have a product success, am I overcharging? Am I ripping you off because I am charge 100 times the cost of aluminum left over after machining?

You have absolutely no clue at all what you are talking about. I have actually done it and learned the hard way what the reality is. I have spent the money, learned the trade, and made 10's of thousands of parts myself. I know the secrets and the details that get it done. I am much faster than most machinists. I write code, design electronics, layout printed circuit boards. Most importantly, I invent. I create new solutions which is remarkably painful and financially risky. Then I have to walk into a market that is excited to see someone stealing IP and they copy it. Yay! You get to save a few dollars but who has the motivation to innovate if the market is only looking for copied crap at the lowest possible cost? As you say, you are voting with your wallet. But you should realize that what you are voting for is that you will ONLY have crap to choose from in the future. Everything that I have designed from custom stabilized aircraft rigs, 360 cameras for the military, or a handle for an FS700 comes directly from real world film making experience. I know the intricate details about how it feels to operate a camera in every environment earth has to offer. If the market pushes the true professionals out the door, there will be nothing to copy and you will be left enjoying even more of the bizarre and useless "rigs" that are popping up all over the world to be cheap alternatives to the industry pioneers that have been on the bleeding edge for the entirety of their careers.

There is a tiny spec of the high-end left in this industry. As that goes away, so will the extraordinary people and skills the motion picture industry is build upon.
 
What he said.



Seriously, one can argue the question of free trade, exploitation of workers, etc. but even if you eliminate all that stuff, in the end this is an example of one company stealing the design of another. That design came from many hours of detailed process work, and from who knows how many man hours/years of production experience. That is the value. Sure I'll give them some credit if they built the damn thing decently as apparently they were churning out useless crap before, but the real value of any good tool is the design that went into it.

This is theft of intellectual property, pure & simple. You can call it "a jungle" but there are supposed to be laws protecting us from the jungle. Laws and personal integrity & morality.
 
It's ironic that a Chinese company's been ripped off, what with their reputation. However as far as I know, Movcam is a reputable company with an original design. I own one myself and am v pleased with it. This knock off reminds me of a fake Rolex from Thailand and frankly, if they're willing to rip something off without blinking an eye, then what are the chances it hasn't been made using recycled Coke cans and what sort of customer service are they likely to provide. However, if it's legally available and people want to buy it, then that's their right and even if you don't agree with the practice (which I personally don't) I'm not sure there's a need to rant and rave and patronise people, that really doesn't make for a particularly pleasant read over my corn flakes. Camera gear has and always will be expensive to a degree because it's specialised stuff and limited as far as the amount of customers who buy it, therefore it's going to be more expensive than seemingly similar mass produced bits of metal and plastic. Just 10 pence worth from somebody who fulfils the stated criteria for being 'professional' in this business.
 
cuervo said:
...as for myself, and the age-old arguments about what constitutes a "professional" and what doesn't.....
I am blessed because of my career, that I can make films of value, films that help other human beings.....and I can do it pro-bono.....
because most of the people I help can't afford a decent house or car, and they "aspire" for the passion of their craft......so, I won't argue with you over what makes a professional...it's an old and very worn out argument. All i know is that people appreciate me and what I do for them...and that's enough for me. and you never know when something I've done might show up.....like i said.....if it's profit motivated, nope, you'll probably never see something I made. But the children and people who learn from what I give them, it's worth more than anything I could ever want to be paid.

And, not that it matters, but some of the more well known people I've worked with, or on, include Richard Benjamin(Goodbye Columbus), Wes Studi(Dances with Wolves), Christopher Lloyd(Back to the Future), Dean Stockwell(Boy with the Green Hair), Waldemar Kalinowski(Fast and the Furious), Edward Carfagno(Ben Hur), Lew Lee, Peter Lamont(007 films), Jon Moritsugu, Joanna Lovetti(The Sopranos), Gail Yasunaga(Searching for Debra Winger)...et al...
P.S. I do NOT condone piracy, theft, cloning, stealing creative property in any form or fashion.

In the end, when all is said and done, it isn't how much I made, or how much status I earned, it's about who I've loved and who loves me, Colin. That's all that really matters to me.
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Here's the thing, which I don't think you quite appreciate: You seem to believe that your 20 years of amateur film making equate to 20 years of professional film making. Which they don't. They just don't. They don't even equate to 5 years of professional film making.

That's because is a big difference between amateur productions, of any length or scale, whether they involve professionals or well known actors or not, and a professional shoot: one commissioned by a paying client that expects a certain product, of specific quality, of specific length, delivered in a set timescale and within a fixed budget.

Because there is a lot more to a professional film productions than simply turning on a camera, shooting a bunch of material and splicing it together on a computer. Everything from the way the pros do things (techniques, etiquette and processes developed across a hundred years of professional film making); through to the legal requirements of professional productions: contracts, contributor release forms, location release forms, health and safer regulations; through to soft skills like knowing how to building trust quickly with sensitive contributors to knowing how to splice together a film that interests and engages a broad audience of consumers. It's these things that exist as a body of knowledge within the professional industry. Many of which aren't easily written down in books and blogs - and can only be learnt by working with professionals.

If you ever worked across both arenas (as most pros do: we all do 'pro bono' work from time to time to help aspiring film makers hone their craft) you would understand and appreciate these differences - and a lot of the comments you make seem to indicate you don't appreciate these differences.

I'm not saying your film making experience isn't valid and I'm not saying the films you make and the time you spend helping other people make theirs isn't valuable, both clearly are. And I'm definitely not saying that your technical experience and knowledge gained from your professional experience as an optical engineer isn't valid - I'm very willing to listen to your opinions based upon that and to defer to you on relevant technical matters in that arena, but you should be aware of what the limits of your experience are. Especially if you're going to start denigrating aspiring professionals, or working professionals who are trying to navigate the challenges of working in a industry that is undergoing rapid change brought about by disruptive technology.

I'm all for the cost of quality equipment coming down. I think it's great that modern technology and the modern economy means that with just a few thousand pounds worth of gear I'm able to produce images of a standard that previously required closer to a hundred thousand pounds worth of gear, along with a truck load of lights and crew.

But I'm also aware that this low cost revolution has, along with changes to the distribution networks, put huge cost pressures on productions, upon rental houses and equipment manufacturers who have been undercut by low cost outfits and upon working film makers - who have seen their wages stagnate for a good 10-15 years due to competition from emergent film makers. I'm also aware that this change has also eroded the skills base of the film making community.

My only hope is that, despite these changes, there yet remains hope for the working professional. That while the supply of labour has increased from below, the proliferation of online media and new channels has also increased demand. As the cost of the equipment falls, and 'anyone' can become a 'film maker', the demand for, and the value of, the professional's skill and experience will also increase because it is no longer enough to differentiate yourself from the competition purely upon the basis of what gear you have, instead you must differentiate yourself based upon your skill in using it.

At least that's my hope. Of course, it will all come to nought if governments continue to stand by and let the pirates and online distributors unfairly profit from the hard work of film makers through theft and unchecked monopoly power.
 
sunnyjimfilms said:
It's ironic that a Chinese company's been ripped off, what with their reputation. However as far as I know, Movcam is a reputable company with an original design. I own one myself and am v pleased with it. This knock off reminds me of a fake Rolex from Thailand and frankly, if they're willing to rip something off without blinking an eye, then what are the chances it hasn't been made using recycled Coke cans and what sort of customer service are they likely to provide. However, if it's legally available and people want to buy it, then that's their right and even if you don't agree with the practice (which I personally don't) I'm not sure there's a need to rant and rave and patronise people, that really doesn't make for a particularly pleasant read over my corn flakes. Camera gear has and always will be expensive to a degree because it's specialised stuff and limited as far as the amount of customers who buy it, therefore it's going to be more expensive than seemingly similar mass produced bits of metal and plastic. Just 10 pence worth from somebody who fulfils the stated criteria for being 'professional' in this business.
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Pretty much this. I can pretty much gaurantee that noone would prefer to buy this solution over Tilta, Zacuto, Arri and all the other quality brands. Sadly, as I've just experienced, these brands tend to cost damn near the same as the camera before you're finished building the rig; and thats disregarding sliders, tripods and all the other equipment you'll need to get up and running. If you're under education, or just educated and what to be serious about production, its just not financially possible. You'll have to take a shortcut or two. I'm sure everyone has done this sometime, somewhere, somehow. Maybe it hasn't been by picking up a cheap knock-off rig, but then they've done something else. As I said, if money was no issue everyone would get the best available, but thats not realistic for some. That does not mean they need patronising, nor being told that they are wrong and should feel bad about it.

That being said, I appriciate quality stuff, and I respect those who make it. I've had the idea that if you can afford it, you may as well buy the best the first time around. Although I should admit I came dangerously close to buying some cheap As Arri lights at one point :p My point is that while I think we all would like to afford the best of the best, calling people out who cannot afford it seems morally shady to me.

I should also mention that I realise this is quite easy for me to sit and ramble about, as it is not me who're losing customers on this. I also understand that there are indeed laws which should prevent these things. I don't feel like I'm qualified to actually have a proper debate regarding this, as I've worked in that line of business. All I'm really trying to point out, and its something which has been pointed out already, is that prices on the quality western stuff is most often too difficult to deal with for people trying to get into the business. I know we're not forced into buying expensive equipment and whatnot. I get that. I just don't think its viable anymore to start out with nothing. To competition, at least where I live, is far too great for that. Why would anyone pick me with some low-end camera and no equipment for it, when they could pick someone with better equipment? Lower prices? Well, then I'd be accused of undermining the other companies prices. It aint easy sometimes.

Not sure where I'm ending on this one. The issues is, I can easily see both parties points. I just think that we often have a tendency to blame the wrong parties. Its not the people buying the products who're doing anything wrong; they are just trying to get up and going as far as I'm concerned. Its the companies which blatantly copy stuff who're to blame.
 
Right off the bat, let me say that this is clearly a hot button issue for many folks. here's my comments....and I'm done with this discussion.

Interesting post, Carlos. Thanks for sharing your experience. The machine shops with which I've had experience have a pretty wide customer base and aren't limited, strictly, to making camera equipment. For any piece of capital equipment, like a mill, that's a pretty big investment to have sitting around idle. So, once again, it would seem that the problem is market share. Unit cost goes down pretty fast when you can sell 'em as fast as you can make 'em. If you make onsies and twosies, well.....not a good business model, IMHO. Having said that, I've, personally, witnessed a lot of high tech businesses go under in the US because of the burden of Federal oversight(paperwork, bureacracy, etc.) It's just sad. I can express my heartfelt appreciation for your points. Manufacturing in the USA is on the wane. Environmental reasons, bureacracy reasons, taxation reasons....and this country is losing its capacity to produce hardware. We are becoming a nation of project managers, a service organization with no real capability to manufacture.

Colin,
I appreciate your position. I have never claimed to be as knowledeable and experienced in the field of cinematography as you are. I do however, have a right to express my OPINION in this, a public forum, without insult and attack. I don't aspire to be anything other than what I am. If your own aspirations leave you feeling unhappy, don't take it out on me. So, let's just leave it at that. If you have a burr under your saddle, please take it elsewhere.

Mitch,
As I have said, I am not justifying the piracy of other people's work. But, it's rather unrealistic to think it won't happen just because it's immoral. You cannot legislate integrity or morality. The goodness or badness of people will always find a way around it. Bemoaning the immoral nature of things won't save the business. Obviously, international law is not stopping this plagiarism. And crying that it's unjust isn't gonna change anything.I think the old axiom applies, "you get what you pay for". Sometimes more, sometimes less. That's just the way things are. Mitch, you work with one of the most personable people I've ever had the pleasure of talking to. There isn't a person in here who doesn't appreciate Dan Keaton.

Conclusion:
I've spent my last 35 years working 24x7, dealing with good people and with asshxxles.I' ve been thru the angst that Carlos talks about. I'm done with that, thank God! I do what I do with a passion. And anyone who chooses to judge it, well, all i can say is , "may you be blessed as I am". I'm not so jaundiced that I can't learn a thing or two. And I think I've been around long enough to contribute a thing or two without insult. This is a very highly competitive business. If you want to go somewhere with it, you need talent, but most of all, you need to be able to get along with others...play nice....engineers, cinematographers, are all a dime a dozen. The knowledgeable ones with an uplifiting personality....those are the ones still working...and loving it...
 
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JensK said:
Not sure where I'm ending on this one. The issues is, I can easily see both parties points. I just think that we often have a tendency to blame the wrong parties. Its not the people buying the products who're doing anything wrong; they are just trying to get up and going as far as I'm concerned. Its the companies which blatantly copy stuff who're to blame.
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i would second that.
 
I personally believe just like the record indurstry someone buying a cut rate rip off product isn't a lost sale and shouldn't be considered such. That same person would't have bought anything if the only the high priced option was around. Anyone I know on larger network or decent budget film shoots would never compromise on their gear and redily pay the high prices for precise machining and manufacturing. The crowd that buys the cut corner quality is one that doesn't mind the lower quality and the lower price and has lower budgets. They aren't even in the market the high priced products serve.

On the filmaker/videographer front if you are worried about being undercut by cut rate film makers without experience and cheap gear low balling then maybe you should re-consider what you offer to your client for your day rate & the market you service. If the client can't tell the difference between inexperience work and what you offer then maybe your not as good as you think you are. (not directed at anyone just general opinion).

The system is top down and as advertisers spend less money on conventional advertising then networks have less money to spend on productions and so on. Much like the recording industry the days of gouging are over. If the product you deliver is that good the clients & money will find its way to you.

Invest in skills not gear

These have been my observations as a Producer for a network for the past 12yrs others may be different but we can have civil discourse on this topic can't we?
 
'If the client can't tell the difference between inexperience work and what you offer then maybe your not as good as you think you are. (not directed at anyone just general opinion).'

You're only as good as a. your last job and b.your client's opinion. Thinking you're s*@t hot yourself isn't really relevant and I would suggest, slightly dangerous. Also, I'm not sure there are many clients in this biz who wouldn't bust you immediately if you didn't know what you were doing.
 
sunnyjimfilms said:
'If the client can't tell the difference between inexperience work and what you offer then maybe your not as good as you think you are. (not directed at anyone just general opinion).'

You're only as good as a. your last job and b.your client's opinion. Thinking you're s*@t hot yourself isn't really relevant and I would suggest, slightly dangerous. Also, I'm not sure there are many clients in this biz who wouldn't bust you immediately if you didn't know what you were doing.
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Yup.
 
RatLabProductions said:
On the filmaker/videographer front if you are worried about being undercut by cut rate film makers without experience and cheap gear low balling then maybe you should re-consider what you offer to your client for your day rate & the market you service. If the client can't tell the difference between inexperience work and what you offer then maybe your not as good as you think you are. (not directed at anyone just general opinion).

The system is top down and as advertisers spend less money on conventional advertising then networks have less money to spend on productions and so on. Much like the recording industry the days of gouging are over. If the product you deliver is that good the clients & money will find its way to you.

Invest in skills not gear
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If you got the impression I'm worried about being undercut by cut rate film makers you seem to have missed my point. I'm not at all worried by them as they provide the contrast required to demonstrate where I add value (beyond simply rocking up with a few bits of kit). I welcome the cut price guys as the most valuable thing I own is my skills and experience: everything else is just film flam.

Unfortunately it can be hard for some clients to see beyond the tools until, that is, they hire one of the cut price guys and see what the difference is, or they simply look at the footage on their reels.

Even then, sometimes they can't see beyond the tools, they don't appreciate the quality differences, or they simply don't think they're worth the extra cost. Those are the clients that I generally avoid these days. I'm too old and have too many commitments to bother trying to compete on price anymore, so I have to compete on quality. Which, as you say, means targeting the part of the market that appreciates it and not stressing about leaving behind the part that doesn't. So far so good. Strangely enough I've generally found that every time I raise my rates I end up earning more and doing better jobs.
 
cuervo said:
Colin,
I appreciate your position. I have never claimed to be as knowledeable and experienced in the field of cinematography as you are. I do however, have a right to express my OPINION in this, a public forum, without insult and attack. I don't aspire to be anything other than what I am. If your own aspirations leave you feeling unhappy, don't take it out on me. So, let's just leave it at that. If you have a burr under your saddle, please take it elsewhere.
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I'm not unhappy. I just balked at you having a go at aspiring film makers. And the 'new' film makers who you considered incapable of making 'real' films. And to a certain extent the people who put a lot of work into new products and are justifiably unhappy when their designs are ripped off by copy-cat manufacturers.

You're certainly welcome to your opinions, but if they offend people you should expect to have to defend them.
 
This is one I can chime in on both ends. As for the Camtree Hunt item though...

Well I got their first FS-700 Kit. It was OK. I was excited about the cost and everything. I got it and it has sat. Working at a rental house I can borrow whatever gear I want whenever for free (max was like $100K in gear once haha...) as long as it isnt' going out. My Camtree stuff has: SAT AND DONE NOTHING. I can't wait to get rid of it. Not quality. I'm always fighting with the rods and paddle screws. Always. Working with Zacuto or MovCam or any other of the more expensive gear is just easy. It all fits and feels and works better. They have a nice setup they just made but I would avoid it like the plague. No idea how long it will or will not last. Namebrands have a lot more cost to them but it is a MUCH better feeling when you use those things. You know it will work and that it wont break as easily. I could go on!
 
More copying? Camtree is now selling a complete knockoff of the Tilta handles. Seriously, every aluminum part looks to be exactly like the Tilta. The only thing new is non-Tilta branded grips. This almost makes me wonder if the Movcam/Tilta stuff is being pumped out of the same factory.

A few years back, I was helping to some work for a 3M mobile projector. After searching a bit, I found that there was a Viewsonic mobile projector with completely identical housing. I think how it turned out is that 3M was having a third party create the plastic enclosures but didn't own exclusive rights to it. So if the manufacturer decided to make alternate colors/styles, they could sell them to anyone else. Is it possible that Movcam/Tilta have some parts being developed/fabricated and can't really control who else buys/brands it? I feel like I see this all the time with cheap batteries, monitors, etc.

EDIT: Looks like the Tilta baseplate, too.
 
Hit up a place like Ali Baba... there are others... and you can see an example of how you can buy bulk of an item like anyone else, rebrand it and make it your own while upcharging. It happens a lot. With overseas manufacturing. It is extremely cheap to do this.
 
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