Camtree FS700 Rig/Cage - the indian knockoff of the Movcam Rig

Hi, i would like to ask how's your camtree rig with you so far? everything working fine?
Do you know what is the weight of the camtree rig weight? (excluding fs700 and all other accessories)
The website list 8.00 Ibs = 3kg+, but is it without fs700? if yes, it is really heavy compare to movcam and tilta rig, then it is hardly can work fine on long time shoulder shooting.
 
wew, the website give me some confusiont then.. so the weight is rig+fs700 without lens? if yes, then this rig is about around 1.5kg only then which is very good, will consider it.
 
It's weird, the website owner told me it is 3kg for the rig only and with fs700 it is 5kg. I don't think the rods make 1.5-2kg different from what you told me total is only 3kg
 
rx8pilot said:
This is crazy. I think I am getting out of this business. Can't take it anymore.
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For us users, this is the BEST possible scenario. Acquisition hardware has been over-priced for decades. Competition brings the price down so the hardships on a small business are greatly eased. And knowledgeable buyers can pick the crap from the workable. The Chinese and the East Indians are making respectable knockoffs. It's all good, IMHO. If a company wants to stay ahead of the game, and charge prices that no one can compete against, then they have to stay on the bleedin' edge. If they can't compete, they die. It's life in the jungle, the survival of the fitest.
 
Wait, you're arguing that cheap knockoffs that blatantly steal the intellectual property of others is a good thing for small business? Do you realize that with the exception of a few large players, every company in our industry is a small business, including most accessory manufacturers?

I have no problem with an Indian or Chinese or whatever company making a low cost product, but stealing intellectual property is something else. Much of the value of a product is the thought that goes into the design. Physical manufacture is a separate value. Movcam has always had its own unique designs. This other company, not so much.
 
It's a jungle, Mitch.....just sayin'....
and consumers vote with their wallets. Not sayin' stealing intellectual property is right. Just sayin' it's gonna happen....and people will buy it or they wouldn't do it. For years, the price of something like a follow focus rig or a mattebox was exhorbitant. After some foreign manufacturers entered the market, I.E. cinevate or whatever, the price has dropped significantly. And I wonder about the ethics of the companies that charged thousands for hardware(Chroziel?) that you can get, now, for hundreds.....

We could really take this to political extremes, but, what's the point. As long as cheap overseas labor can make a quality product for less than a US manufacturer, guess who's gonna fluorish? And since the USA seems to have abandoned import tariffs, it's not a level playing field. I think it's called NAFTA. yaddah, yaffah, yaddah

(By the way, when I say "knockoffs" I don't mean stolen designs, I refer to independently designed stuff, but sold at a fraction of the cost of the good old boys who have overcharged for years.)

All in all, a very interesting discussion. A few years back the music industry and their Borg representatives in the RIAA tried to stop pirating music property. That's a very appropriate example. It isn't that they weren't within their rights, it's just that they were just as immorally culpable as the pirates. In the end, the RIAA decided to approach things in a very zen manner, and now, I suspect they're making more $$ than when they sold ceramic/plastic disks.

In the present case, it's damn hard to say a machined and anodized piece of aluminum can be considered proprietary. It's like trying to patent nails, or SAE screws. Literally, ANYBODY with an NC mill can pop these things out by the hundreds, for next to nothing. And I wonder what the profit margin is on some of this stuff.

If anyone thinks we got piracy problems now, just wait until 3D printing really gets going.
 
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weight, including one big battery:
IMG_1347.jpg



Literally, ANYBODY with an NC mill can pop these things out by the hundreds, for next to nothing.
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by the hundreds? for next to nothing? where do you have this information from?

such a part requires precise 5-axis milling and also rechucking the parts in the middle of the milling process. this is nothing somebody unexperienced could do with just buying a CNC milling machine, even if he had the bucks for a 5-axis mori seiki or whatever brand.

i estimate the price of such a part being milled around 100-150$.

Not including the cost of writing the program for the CNC mill, running costs for tools, finish treatment and anodizing.

we're talking about investments around 300K to get such a company running - if that is even enough.
 
stefanhuberfilms said:
weight, including one big battery:
View attachment 83499




by the hundreds? for next to nothing? where do you have this information from?

such a part requires precise 5-axis milling and also rechucking the parts in the middle of the milling process. this is nothing somebody unexperienced could do with just buying a CNC milling machine, even if he had the bucks for a 5-axis mori seiki or whatever brand.

i estimate the price of such a part being milled around 100-150$.

Not including the cost of writing the program for the CNC mill, running costs for tools, finish treatment and anodizing.

we're talking about investments around 300K to get such a company running - if that is even enough.
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I would agree with you, Stefan, only in part. First of all, there is no high precision, close tolerancing required. THAT'S where machining costs start escalating. With a modern CAD system, the drawings and production files for the NC mill can be turned out in a couple of hours, MAXIMUM. As for the cost of the mill, you'd be amazed at how cheaply reconditioned mills can be purchased in the US. Don't know about Germany. there's nothing 5-axis about htis...3-axis at best. As for "rechucking", the more you make, the cheaper you can make them. You end up rechucking as part of the process, machining 100 at a time for each setup in the process. $US100-$US150 ....yeah, that sounds about right. that's "next to nothing" in today's economy and dollar value. Again, finish and anodize is cheap on a per part basis, when done in batches. That's the problem with a small shop that makes one or two at a time. Indeed, the non-recurring can kill a business.....but amortizing the cost of ownership over 25 years really does make it easier.

As for the skillset, well, it's a tragedy that a skilled machinist can be employed very cheaply, these days, if the owner himself can't run the equipment.

You know, this sounds like it's a "size of the market" issue. Back when cameras ran $100's of thousands and there were only a handful of cinematographers, things were made as one-offs. The gentrification of cinematography has raised the marketplace and reduced prices. Which takes me back to my original post.
 
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true and good points there cuervo. manufacturing in batches is a must in that price range, couldn't be done otherwise.

i haven't seen any used/refurbished 5-axis machines here in Austria yet, but expect a good machine to be in the 90K range, minimum.

in the end, this rig works for me and is well built. I don't care if this is an exact copy of the Movcam rig if it works, but can totally understand what Mitch and Carlos pointed out, seeing it from the side of a manufacturer.
 
It's a nice rig, Stefan. I like it. Some manufacturers here in the US are starting to rig NATO rails for camera applications...
http://www.berkeysystem.com/
NATO rails are non-proprietary and very flexible. Your rig is reminiscent of a NATO rail system.

I really do think that Chinese and indian manufacturers would never gear up for production if the market was small. I'm afraid the market is growing with aspiring film makers every day....and maybe that's a good thing.
 
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I definitely don't agree with stealing intellectual proper and I do prefer the Chinese manufacturers that take an existing idea and make it their own. I got a Lanparte Follow Focus about a year ago and it's fantastic. No play and an excellent design. It's not really a complete knock of anything that I can see either. The director that I work with has an Arri Follow Focus which costs about 4x as much, but for our shoots we actually prefer the Lanparte because the design is so smart, quick and simple to set up.

It's things like that (smart and affordable) that make things good for film makers. The prices before the Asian manufacturers started were just ridiculous. Like Chrosziel matte boxes are north of $2K for a matte box!?!?! That's the same price as the 7Q with about 1000 times less R&D. So yeah, without oversea manufacturers, we would be stuck with companies like Chroszeil and Zacuto and film making would still be just a thing for people with an in or a kid with a trust fund.
 
:violin:
yup! my career of 35 years designing optical equipment for aircraft use finally paid off....LOL
But, to call me "aspiring", well.....hardly. I've been making independent films for 20 years; and doing still photography since college. Hardly a newbie, Colin. What's your excuse? for being borderline irritating and abrasive, that is?
Me mum once told me, unless you have something productive to say, don't say anything at all.
 
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cuervo said:
A few years back the music industry and their Borg representatives in the RIAA tried to stop pirating music property. That's a very appropriate example. It isn't that they weren't within their rights, it's just that they were just as immorally culpable as the pirates. In the end, the RIAA decided to approach things in a very zen manner, and now, I suspect they're making more $$ than when they sold ceramic/plastic disks.
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They're really not, the music industry has been ****ed, totally ****ed by the pirates - and you'd realise that if you spoke to any professional musician. It used to be the case, not so long ago, that you could earn a reasonable living off the back of modest sales of a record (as in, tens of thousands) or from doing gigs - but it's simply not possible to do that anymore.

Consumers just don't see the point in paying for music anymore, they don't even want to pay to see musicians play live. Sure the 'Borg' as you called them used to make a lot of money from successful bands, but they also used to support new acts - they used to invest. Now they don't because they can't afford to - nowadays they expect the bands themselves to go out, build up a fan base, record a track, make a music video, market themselves and then maybe, just maybe, they'd help them to make that big marketing push requiredto make the giant leap required just to pay the rent in the modern industry. Because, unless you're selling millions of records, getting millions of hits on Youtube and flogging your own perfume and clothing range - it's nigh on impossible to make any money from music. Publishing is going the same way, as is cinema and TV is unlikely to be too far behind.

So, if you enjoy media and entertainment of any form
that is anything less than super-mass-market, I'd suggest you stop listening to the bullshit peddled by Google and the other big information mega-corps (and it really is Google and the other companies that make a ****-load of money from advertising on the back people searching for pirated music, books and videos that were pushing the so-called 'free internet' agenda) and get behind serious attempts to clamp down on it - before we all just end up working in advertising (those of us that still want to work in the moving-image business)
 
Times change, things never stay the same. Adapt or die...that's the entreprenurial way, Colin. Things aren't the same way as they were 2 decades ago. Like it or not. Many lives were ruined by the RIAA, and I have no sympathy for them. (Jim Fogarty-Credence Clearwater comes to mind)It's all about the profit motive, whether it's music or airplanes. And the human factor is an expendable item...not. Not in my book . anyway. The artistic, creative person is, generally, the one who suffers, because a business ethic and a creative ethic don't coexist. So, think what you will, oil and water don't mix.
 
cuervo said:
:violin:
yup! my career of 35 years designing optical equipment for aircraft use finally paid off....LOL
But, to call me "aspiring", well.....hardly. I've been making independent films for 20 years; and doing still photography since college. Hardly a newbie, Colin. What's your excuse? for being borderline irritating and abrasive, that is?
Me mum once told me, unless you have something productive to say, don't say anything at all.
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You were the one bashing the aspiring film makers, not me. I was just pointing out it was a bit of a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I mean you've got to draw the line somewhere, haven't you? As far as I'm concerned, if you don't make the majority of your money from something you can't really call yourself a 'professional'. And if you're not a professional you're either an amateur or an aspiring professional - either is fine and I have absolutely no problem with people that like making films as a hobby, or aspire to making them professionally now day - and at the end of the day you can call yourself whatever the hell you like, but unless someone you've never met before is will to put some cash on the table for you to do a job for them, you're not really in the professional arena. And if your not, I'd say it's only fair to show some respect to the people that do it for a living, day in, day out for years at a time - and especially the the body of knowledge and experience they develop from doing this.

But mostly I don't think you have to right to look down on people who, like you, don't do something at the professional level, yet. I don't really care if you've been making 'independent films' for 20 years because unless you've got a string of credits on movies, TV shows, commercials, or channels people have actually heard, or at least have a reasonable body of commercial/corporate work you can shout about then it's all just hot air - and even if you did, it still doesn't give you the right to look down on people who are just starting out in their professional careers.
 
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