George Loch
Well-known member
This is what prompted the question. Seeing a PL-mount C500 for $7000-8000 made me wonder what was wrong with it
-gl
C500: C500: worthy option?
- Thread starter George Loch
- Start date
This is what prompted the question. Seeing a PL-mount C500 for $7000-8000 made me wonder what was wrong with it
-gl
This is what prompted the question. Seeing a PL-mount C500 for $7000-8000 made me wonder what was wrong with it
-gl
Nothing is wrong with it- just the market value.
As someone who owned a couple (of C500s), I'd skip them. The RAW files are big- producers don't want to pay for the post pipeline. The dynamic range, especially highlight control is poor by current standards.
However, with the current 7Q recording options, the camera is much better than last year. It was the low light cinema king, but other cameras have passed it.
When the price gets to around $5K it'll get interesting- see how it compares to the current unknowns like Ursa Mini 4.6K.
I always disliked the erg of the C series, and the user interface is convoluted in my opinion.
Run&Gun
Veteran
This is what prompted the question. Seeing a PL-mount C500 for $7000-8000 made me wonder what was wrong with it
-gl
EOL, never popular to begin with, crappy form factor, have to use off-board recorder for 4K recording...
Look for a used F5 or F55.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Unfortunately it was not true. There was a misunderstanding between Canon and Convergent Design. We issued a Press Release correction. It is available on our blog.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Misunderstanding between Canon & CD.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
So for now,
C500 only advantage are
-4K 60p
-s35 120p instead of a crop (and with higher horizontal resolution. 3840x1080 ("half UHD" they call it) vs 1920x1080 on C300MKII - exact crop amount is still undecided by the people at Canon)
-50mbps 4:2:2 Codec for broadcasters
-Lower price if you go with a used one now since no used mkIIs for a long while
While again the C300 benefits are summarized:
-New generation sensor, half the rolling shutter, increased 3 stops of DR, smooth highlight rolloff, better noise performance.
-Much much better ergonomics. No cables to bulky recorder on a rig, all-in-one internal 4K 10bit 422 recording using just the body
-Internal 120p slowmotion
-Improved audio quality,
-Improved build quality, power consumption vs c500+recorder combo together.
-Smaller more efficient codec, yet raw is also available via SDI
-A grip to actually hold the camera, and more buttons (that illuminate in the dark)
-Hugely improved EVF and LCD monitor
-Huge improved handle quality and cables quality
-Internal wifi without needing that dongle
-DPAF covering 80% of the frame and Face detection
-Interchangeable PL & EF mounts
-Stronger ND stops
-Smaller package overall after rigging C500 for 4K, lighter weight
-Higher market value (will get more work as the new kid) & also higher resale value
C500 only advantage are
-4K 60p
-s35 120p instead of a crop (and with higher horizontal resolution. 3840x1080 ("half UHD" they call it) vs 1920x1080 on C300MKII - exact crop amount is still undecided by the people at Canon)
-50mbps 4:2:2 Codec for broadcasters
-Lower price if you go with a used one now since no used mkIIs for a long while
While again the C300 benefits are summarized:
-New generation sensor, half the rolling shutter, increased 3 stops of DR, smooth highlight rolloff, better noise performance.
-Much much better ergonomics. No cables to bulky recorder on a rig, all-in-one internal 4K 10bit 422 recording using just the body
-Internal 120p slowmotion
-Improved audio quality,
-Improved build quality, power consumption vs c500+recorder combo together.
-Smaller more efficient codec, yet raw is also available via SDI
-A grip to actually hold the camera, and more buttons (that illuminate in the dark)
-Hugely improved EVF and LCD monitor
-Huge improved handle quality and cables quality
-Internal wifi without needing that dongle
-DPAF covering 80% of the frame and Face detection
-Interchangeable PL & EF mounts
-Stronger ND stops
-Smaller package overall after rigging C500 for 4K, lighter weight
-Higher market value (will get more work as the new kid) & also higher resale value
I agree the C500/7Q combo has prolonged the life of this camera for me as well. It has also saved me tons of money because I most certainly would have bought either Amira or Varicam 35. (Never been a Sony guy went from Ikegami HLV55>HLV59>Tape Varicam>P2 Varicam>C500) I now own three C500's and just recently bought my 4th Odyssey cashing in on the 2 free 256 SSD offer before it ended so I would think a 4th C500 is coming soon.
There are a few more things I hope CD offers in future firmware upgrades that could possible stretch the cameras life just a little bit further. (ProRes444 12bit/DNxHD/120fps HD recording) Zacuto has helped make the ergonomics/view finder probably as good as one could hope given the cameras "odd" design. For me $50k for better ergonomics and minimal image improvement is not value for money I would rather make money for the next 12 months or so and wait to see what happens. The C300 MarkII just doesn't seem to have enough pluses and still shares the same form factor that is not ideal to be the next camera for me.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Better ergonomics than what? A brick wrapped in razor wire? ; ) The ergonomics and design of all the C's suck. Don't get me wrong, I love the image that my C300 can produce, but I hate shooting WITH it. I just did an all day shoot with my F55 a few days ago and it was like a dream compared to using my C in a similar situation. The body design and native VF alone are worth the price difference to me(I did purchase my 55 used, btw).
If you have to send the camera back to the manufacturer to have it done each time, you can't really say that the mounts are interchangeable. At least not in a practice sense.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
Obviously, the C500.
This is a comparison between the C500 and the C300 MK II.
Interchangeable mount is a very important point when comparing the two cameras,
One of the main complaints about the C300/500 is that you had to make a choice of PL or EF and never be able to change that, which is very troubling on such a high end camera.
So one of the improvements of the C300II, is that you're not locked with the choice you make while purchasing. Now you can send the camera to a Canon service center anytime and transform it from PL to EF or vice versa. A very important feature when we're comparing the C500 and the C300II. Right?
Well, the big advantage of C500 over C300 MK II is that you can buy it used ... while you can't buy C300 MK II at all ... yet.
So, if someone is a multi-cam user/owner/operator/renter, C500 is available now and not 3-4 months away - at best. Additionally, external recorders will work on both units (adjusting for the Canon Raw license price, if required). So, when comparing these particular two cameras, that difference should be made in/quantified into the financial terms as well.
So, if someone is a multi-cam user/owner/operator/renter, C500 is available now and not 3-4 months away - at best. Additionally, external recorders will work on both units (adjusting for the Canon Raw license price, if required). So, when comparing these particular two cameras, that difference should be made in/quantified into the financial terms as well.
Run&Gun
Veteran
I understand you were talking about the current 500(with an outboard recorder) vs the new 300(with internal 4K), but my point was the ergonomics still aren't good. It's the SAME (imo) bad design from 3-4 years ago. I'm sure the camera is going to be a great performer, but a lot of people will still be in the same boat of HATING to actually use it. If someone came from knowing nothing but DSLR's, the C cams design would be great. But if you come from a background of using full size/shoulder mount cameras, the C's are a total PITA to shoot with, except in limited situations where the small size can be a benefit. And for me, those situations are a few and far between.
Yes, I do agree(and almost posted this) that it's great that they're not locking you into one body or the other for PL or EF this time around, but it's not as great as it initially sounds because you do have to send the camera away for the mount swap. If they had designed it to be done in the field by the end-user, Canon would have gotten big points on the board.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
Let me defend the Cx00 ergonomics by clarifying what it is and what it is not.
Ergonomics are personal. Some of us need a shoulder-mount camera, Cx00 is not for them. Some need a pocket camera Cx00 is not for them. That doesn't make it a bad design, it's just a different type camera for different shooters.
it's a well-designed handheld camcorder with very comfortable & intuitive interface of buttons. Off all the cameras I've ever used in the industry, the C300 was my favourite design, just hold the damn camera, put a lens, and shoot now. Simple, easy, fast but won't work for those who need it on their shoulder or in their pocket though.
Ergonomics are personal. Some of us need a shoulder-mount camera, Cx00 is not for them. Some need a pocket camera Cx00 is not for them. That doesn't make it a bad design, it's just a different type camera for different shooters.
it's a well-designed handheld camcorder with very comfortable & intuitive interface of buttons. Off all the cameras I've ever used in the industry, the C300 was my favourite design, just hold the damn camera, put a lens, and shoot now. Simple, easy, fast but won't work for those who need it on their shoulder or in their pocket though.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Fair enough and very true. Just like watches, colors, sunglasses, etc. It's all VERY personal and dependent on your taste.
It's just that the world I live in and my background and shooting style, it doesn't work. And most of the people that I work with are of the same mindset and feeling. And it's largely because of the clients and how we are being asked to use them(in ENG style shooting scenarios, which they are not designed for).
jm.gardiner
Well-known member
I never understand the hate on the C line ergonomics. It's roughly the same size shape as the Epic or scarlet, but smoother and easier to hold and lighter when stripped down. I shoot handheld, shoulder, from the hip and studio setup without any drama every day.
You want a small discreet form you've got it. You want a cat on the shoulder, throw a battery plate or counter balance on the back.
You want a small discreet form you've got it. You want a cat on the shoulder, throw a battery plate or counter balance on the back.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
The hate for the C300 ergonomics comes from two groups:
-Those who want to shoot on the shoulder with operator side controls and a left side EVF and a balanced "long" design (Cion, Amira, XF305, Sony ENGs), this is not the C300 design at all and it needs to be rigged the same way a DSLR or a Mirrorless would be rigged to shoot on the shoulder ENG-style. It can be done, but with accessories and bits and pieces, and it's not a shoulder ENG camera out of the box. I understand how this type of shooters will not appreciate the design and size of the C300.
-Those who want a smaller camera for a smaller bag in DSLR size form or pocket camera form.
-The third group who love the C300 ergonomics are the ones who like the medium size (not pocket and not alexa), like to handhold the camera, like nice button/dial/interface, and are willing to add accessories shall they need it on their shoulder. It's the perfect Handheld Camcorder design for this group.
That's why I always say there's no such thing as a perfect video camera design, there are 3:
-Perfect Small (DSLR/Mirrorless),
-Perfect medium handheld
-Perfect Large shoulder-mount/studio
I think the closest to the title of each one is
1-GH4,
2-c300/II
3-Arri Amira
-Those who want to shoot on the shoulder with operator side controls and a left side EVF and a balanced "long" design (Cion, Amira, XF305, Sony ENGs), this is not the C300 design at all and it needs to be rigged the same way a DSLR or a Mirrorless would be rigged to shoot on the shoulder ENG-style. It can be done, but with accessories and bits and pieces, and it's not a shoulder ENG camera out of the box. I understand how this type of shooters will not appreciate the design and size of the C300.
-Those who want a smaller camera for a smaller bag in DSLR size form or pocket camera form.
-The third group who love the C300 ergonomics are the ones who like the medium size (not pocket and not alexa), like to handhold the camera, like nice button/dial/interface, and are willing to add accessories shall they need it on their shoulder. It's the perfect Handheld Camcorder design for this group.
That's why I always say there's no such thing as a perfect video camera design, there are 3:
-Perfect Small (DSLR/Mirrorless),
-Perfect medium handheld
-Perfect Large shoulder-mount/studio
I think the closest to the title of each one is
1-GH4,
2-c300/II
3-Arri Amira
spinkscapes
Well-known member
FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
The complaint comes that by shoulder mounting it with a rig you end up blocking off all of the useful buttons Canon put on the back of the camera (like a DSLR when rigged). I also find the audio pots in a terrible position when rigged for shoulder duty for adjustments on the fly. These might not matter to some depending on what you shoot but they do to me which is why I dislike the C form factor. Some love it some hate it and both opinions have very valid points of view.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Your pictures sum it up.
My original Redrock "rig" for my 300 when ready to shoot weighed in at least as much as my VariCam, but with only a fraction of the usability. I've recently switched to a Zacuto "rig" and while it is a much lighter and better set-up, it's still far from my favorite camera to actually use.
Sony got it right with the F55, as far as sub-shoulder mount sized "cinema" cameras go. It's still small and light(for those that check those boxes as high priority), but a shoulder mount(I went with the Zacuto Universal) and a grip(unless you're using a lens with one) and you are rocking and rolling.