C300: C300MKIII at NAB????

I own an ARRI Amira and a Canon C300 MKI, hands down the Canon is my bread and butter camera so an updated C300 MKIII will be welcome.
8K sensor that captures real 4K in-camera would be 100% welcome.

Must haves:
Easy to access hi quality slow mo.
Improved highlight roll off.
Improved viewfinder/on-board monitor.
Sub $20K price tag.
Rugged chassis with plenty of 1/4 20" taps.

Extras:
FF sensor
Built in stabilization
LUT management
Improved DR
Cleaner noise floor, S/N ratio.
Improved Auto Tracking White Balance
Multi-mount or interchangeable lens mounts.


This will be perfect for so many broadcast applications for years to come.
 
chris f said:
The main appeal of full frame to me is solving the dilemma of having no great doc lenses. This would make the 24-105 f/4 IS a great go-to light, handheld kit. It would also mean the 70-200 f/4 IS would also be in play as a light, hand-holdable long lens.
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I think this is true as it stands today. I really like having a 24-100 on my A7SII (though I really DON't like the A7SII). However, I think this has more to do with the companies priorities than it has to do with what is technically possible. I think Canon just doesn't put much R&D into APS-C lenses. This is evidenced by the upcoming Fuji 16-80 f/4 lens. This is even better than a 24-105 with more reach. Of course, no one knows how it will perform yet. Also the 15-85mm Canon is a nice lens, but annoying in some ways - vignetting, non-constant aperature. One wonders if they tried a bit harder, and charged a bit more if they could come up with an f/4 version.

Also on the 70-200mm f/4. I don't know why this isn't good for APS-C. I use mine all the time. In general, when I'm using a telephoto lens I rarely want LESS reach. So for me I'd rather have this lens on an APS-C body anyways. For me 70mm is too long on both APS-C and Full Frame for interviews.
 
I agree. The C300 MkI continues to make me money. I want to quickly shift between various slow motion options else the shot is lost. I want fullframe. However, for certain applications need the option of having a s35 shooting option. Give me great lowlight capability with very little noise and good dynamic range. And please keep the weight lower than the Mark II.

bill totolo said:
I own an ARRI Amira and a Canon C300 MKI, hands down the Canon is my bread and butter camera so an updated C300 MKIII will be welcome.
8K sensor that captures real 4K in-camera would be 100% welcome.

Must haves:
Easy to access hi quality slow mo.
Improved highlight roll off.
Improved viewfinder/on-board monitor.
Sub $20K price tag.
Rugged chassis with plenty of 1/4 20" taps.

Extras:
FF sensor
Built in stabilization
LUT management
Improved DR
Cleaner noise floor, S/N ratio.
Improved Auto Tracking White Balance
Multi-mount or interchangeable lens mounts.


This will be perfect for so many broadcast applications for years to come.
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Is the Dual Pixel sensor part of the softness, (comparatively low) dynamic range, and noise problems? Sony and Fuji have shown DP AF isn't needed for great AF (hybrid phase + contrast works pretty good). Imagine Sony licensing the VENICE sensor to Canon (in an alternate universe because the likelihood of this in our universe is kinda low haha). Canon does their own thing with color science, body, EF/RF/PL support. Makes the camera smaller and lighter than the C100 Mk I. Wireless detachable monitor. HDR 4K EVF is also detachable (wireless option would be cool too). Good codec options: H.264, H.265, and for the big win, license Cineform (wavelet) and also ProRes raw (if there are patent issues with Cineform raw (would be very similar to Red raw)). Or think outside the box and license whatever is needed from Red to get wavelet compressed raw internally.

For cinema quality shots where AF isn't needed, Red's image quality for the Monstro VV (FF+) which can use Canon EF lenses has really come a long way in terms of artifact-free image quality, excellent real detail, massively improved color science (skin tones are looking pretty good now), decent slomo options, an excellent wavelet compressed raw format, and a fairly small and light body. This is from one of the newest and smallest camera companies (BM is the other). Sony, Canon, and Panasonic (perhaps even Fuji) have vastly greater manufacturing capabilities, and can make custom VLSI/SOC low power-high compute devices for cinema-level quality in bodies not much bigger than a cell phone (today). Apple and Samsung phones already have far more computing power than what is needed for a top-of-the-line cinema camera. All that's needed is a decent sensor and fast storage system. The only thing that makes sense (for Canon) that they don't so something radical is they're amortizing ancient designs, hardware, and production pipelines until they are forced to modernize. What will cause a forced change? Lack of sales for the old designs, especially if other competitors build and release what is discussed here.

Black magic's color science is also looking pretty good lately, and if they had access to better hardware (FPN issues, QC issues), BM & Red are really looking to be leaders for the future building smaller cameras with features filmmakers want and need at prices most can afford. The biggest barrier for most is quality control (which takes time and money to develop).
 
Oh, oh, they need to fix the absolute worst thing about the C300 Mark II. When you press the joystick button on the handle, it needs to be able to select to toggle between white balance, shutter speed, etc., like it did with the C100, instead of doing nothing as it does on the C300 Mark II. I'd pay an extra $10,000 for that feature.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
Oh, oh, they need to fix the absolute worst thing about the C300 Mark II. When you press the joystick button on the handle, it needs to be able to select to toggle between white balance, shutter speed, etc., like it did with the C100, instead of doing nothing as it does on the C300 Mark II. I'd pay an extra $10,000 for that feature.
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I wouldn't pay $10k for it but I agree, miss that feature for run & gun shooting so much!
That was on my firmware request list for Canon for the C200. Ain't happening, Canon doesn't really add features with firmware updates for the most part and they definitely don't listen to users and give them what they want like some other companies do so, so well like Panasonic and Fuji.
C200 has been a great lesson in WYSIWYG in cameras, never buy a camera hoping that the manufacturer will add any features. Pretty much what ships is what you are stuck with other than an occasional surprise like all of the nice EVA 1 updates Mitch and Co have been providing.
 
puredrifting said:
...never buy a camera hoping that the manufacturer will add any features. Pretty much what ships is what you are stuck with...
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Yes. Make this a sticky on every manufacturer sub-forum.

We got lucky with the F55 and Sony stuck to their word of continual improvements and it went from a good camera to an incredible camera, but I would consider that the exception and definitely not the rule.
 
You know how people sometimes post a 'wishlist' for camera improvements or features?

That's how some Blackmagic FW updates look. Not all, but some look like a forum member wrote them.

Just bizarre transformations/additions via existing software and hardware...for free.
 
NorBro said:
You know how people sometimes post a 'wishlist' for camera improvements or features?

That's how some Blackmagic FW updates look. Not all, but some look like a forum member wrote them.

Just bizarre transformations/additions via existing software and hardware...for free.
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BM and Red look better every year. Canon had decent color (still does) and best AF. Other than lenses (and good reliability which is still very important), where's Canon's advantage moving forward? Look at the all the Fuji and Sony jumpers lately. For cinema, BM and Red look pretty good for self-owned productions (so (low) reliability is more of an annoyance), else Sony looks great (VENICE- bang for buck vs. Alexa LF). ARRI still rules the top with a little Red and Sony here and there (and everything else for B & C).

I've been messing around with the old 80D (smallest camera I have which has decent quality), including doing some 1080 24p to 4K60p (in PP CC with optical motion blending)- looks pretty good (especially compared to Canon's "8K60p" haha), even older cameras to see what's possible with ancient tech. Spending more time with tech (software) for day work, so want to spend time and energy being creative when working with cameras (vs. chasing the latest and greatest new cameras which aren't all that great). Just pitched a documentary project proposal- didn't even mention any specific cameras: would use whatever is appropriate for the production and budget.

Maybe after a while we get tired of chasing the perfect camera (which was fun for a while) and just want to create good content with the least hassles.
 
Canon has given various improvements to the C300 Mark II, most notably magnification while recording was not available when it first came out and was later added in a firmware update, which is a feature I regularly use for sit down interviews as I find focusing with that is more reliable than auto-focus.

I do agree with Dan's prediction, though, that there won't be a C300 Mark II at NAB.

I'd rather there not be as I'm pretty happy with my C300 Mark IIs and would rather not spend $30k to upgrade my three cameras, as I don't view a new camera coming out as a good way for me to make more profit, it'd just be an additional cost for my business for improved feature set that I'd have a hard time charging clients more for, yet, over time clients would come to expect it. I'd want to upgrade eventually, of course, but rather later than sooner, so the longer it takes to update the better for me.

That's one of the best things about Arri, I bought my first Amira when the model was already four or so years old, but it's still got a lot of life left in it as Arri isn't constantly upgrading and out-dating their cameras like Red. Even if Arri comes out with an LF version of the Mini or Amira, it's still a pretty different camera set that I don't feel would out-date the super35 version, and I don't foresee them updating and out-dating their super35 versions any time soon.
 
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I do think if full frame and Super 35 can be switchable (like with the A7S II) at the flip of a button with no image quality loss (I think the A7s II had more aliasing in Super35 or some type of degredation) then that'd be a pretty sweet feature. I'm all for choices, I just don't like having to be stuck with needing larger and heavier lenses to get the same amount of needed zoom, as well as overly shallow depth of field. But if I can at a moments notice turn my 24mm lens into a 16mm wide angle, or suddenly get extra shallow depth of field out of a 50 f/1.2, then cool. Just set a user button so you can change it in an instant. Knowing camera manufacturers they'd come out with a cool feature and then only make it available to change with a minute of menu digging.
 
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Canon and Sony could learn a bit from Black Magic's UM Pro, and now G2, from a user interface point of view (not necessarily image quality, especially higher ISO).

Whenever I'm given an UMP to shoot with, I feel the UI is a step forward. On the G2 I'm eyeing that HFR button. Last week I had a 3 cam C300M2 shoot, with 17-120 zooms, lockit boxes, Teradek's etc. We were going between 23.98 UHD and 48 fps 1080.

What a PITA.
 
NorBro said:
You can assign that to a button in the Sony...Canon would probably ask you to send it in so they could switch it for you.
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klk said:
Canon and Sony could learn a bit from Black Magic's UM Pro, and now G2, from a user interface point of view (not necessarily image quality, especially higher ISO).

Whenever I'm given an UMP to shoot with, I feel the UI is a step forward. On the G2 I'm eyeing that HFR button. Last week I had a 3 cam C300M2 shoot, with 17-120 zooms, lockit boxes, Teradek's etc. We were going between 23.98 UHD and 48 fps 1080.

What a PITA.
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NorBro said:
The HFR button on the Pocket is so nice.
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One of the great things about camera companies that have been building real video cameras for decades... They get certain things right. I can jump in and out of real-time and slow-mo on my F55 at the touch of a single button. I can even set-up my (relatively) old P2 VariCam that’s ~ a decade old to do the same.
 
jcs said:
...Maybe after a while we get tired of chasing the perfect camera (which was fun for a while) and just want to create good content with the least hassles.
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I'm there. I'm done with buying new cameras for the foreseeable future. I've reached the point of what I have is so good, so competent compared to what our clients need/want, that I'm done. If I could sell the two documentaries I am producing and actually make a little profit, I would probably sell off the C200 and just buy a second X-T3 or X-H2 body when it comes out. One rigged for interviews and tripod shooting with a cage, port protector, monitor and one bone stock for gimbal. No documentary I am going to produce would require anything better. I love small and light and cheap. I'm heading to a Jiu Jitsu studio this morning to shoot b-roll of our ultra marathon runner training and getting thrown all over the place. C200 with the EF 70-200 f/2.8 IS II on tripod, X-T3 on gimbal with the XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4.0 OIS on gimbal and I will alternate between them. I know it will look great, will be shooting 4K 60p on both cams, maybe a little 1080 120fps just for social media?

It's so great not lusting after "better" cameras because for what I am doing, both are perfect.
 
puredrifting said:
I'm there. I'm done with buying new cameras for the foreseeable future. I've reached the point of what I have is so good, so competent compared to what our clients need/want, that I'm done. If I could sell the two documentaries I am producing and actually make a little profit, I would probably sell off the C200 and just buy a second X-T3 or X-H2 body when it comes out. One rigged for interviews and tripod shooting with a cage, port protector, monitor and one bone stock for gimbal. No documentary I am going to produce would require anything better. I love small and light and cheap. I'm heading to a Jiu Jitsu studio this morning to shoot b-roll of our ultra marathon runner training and getting thrown all over the place. C200 with the EF 70-200 f/2.8 IS II on tripod, X-T3 on gimbal with the XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4.0 OIS on gimbal and I will alternate between them. I know it will look great, will be shooting 4K 60p on both cams, maybe a little 1080 120fps just for social media?

It's so great not lusting after "better" cameras because for what I am doing, both are perfect.
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Yeah, when AF is required, small cameras have reached sufficient quality. When higher quality with MF is desired, Red Monstro VV / DMSC2 Monstro, Sony VENICE, and Alexa LF have my interest (rental). All can use my collection of FF Canon lenses (to save on lens rental or to rent mine to clients), and of course top lenses from Cooke (for character), Zeiss and the latest Leica Thalia (insane detail) etc. The fact that a FF Red can ride on a Ronin-S is pretty cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hbot9OZq5M . Note power could be belt-mounted to reduce carry weight. Still a bit heavy, though for certain (quick) shoots could work fine.

The C200 shooting raw is still a good option when low-budget internal-raw is desired (and when AF with raw is desired).

EDIT. This is the video that made me completely lose interest in Canon on the cinema level for color, DR, and detail (other than C200 raw when AF needed):

Shot on the Canon 16-35 F2.8 III and 70-200 F2.8 II (Canon still lenses do well in (True) 4K and 8K).

All Canon cinema camera footage (internal compressed; raw is better) looks like Gaussian blur has been applied in comparison (and the C300 II still aliases!). I noticed this when comparing the C300 II "4K" to the 1DX II 4K (visibly more real detail on the 1DX II and so far (knock on wood) haven't noticed any aliasing).

Real detail without artifacts (aliasing and moire) doesn't hurt the cinema look at all, especially wide, landscape, and nature shots. The 8K Red + Canon lenses Bulgaria footage (at 60P no less!) is breathtaking quality on a 4K display; very similar to the VENICE in Venice 6K => 4K footage with Cooke and Leica Thalia lenses.
 
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puredrifting said:
I'm there. I'm done with buying new cameras for the foreseeable future. I've reached the point of what I have is so good, so competent compared to what our clients need/want, that I'm done. If I could sell the two documentaries I am producing and actually make a little profit, I would probably sell off the C200 and just buy a second X-T3 or X-H2 body when it comes out. One rigged for interviews and tripod shooting with a cage, port protector, monitor and one bone stock for gimbal. ....
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I bought the xt-3 to live on a ronin - s, and while I love the form factor and the flexibility it brings to my kit, it's in no way a replacement for the c200 (or in my case the c300II). The AF, while fast isn't in the same league as DPAF (it tends to rock in and out of focus when the subject distance changes). I find it hard to grade in almost every situation...the color is just really different than the canon's and its near impossible to get it to "look" like what I like about canon's color science. In lower light situations it's just a different beast, and the color issues get more difficult to control. Finally...to me, it's a little too sharp...which probably flies in the face of all the criticism the canon camera's get here. It almost has a still image quality, which isn't what I'm after in a cinema camera. To each his own on this, but I prefer the image I get off the C300 by a huge mile --output raw to PR on the Atomos. I would never shoot a doc with the xt-3 as my A camera. Still trying to figure out if it's even usable B camera.
 
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