C300: C300 Mark II or Sony FS7? Need help to pick one out, Will be buying either one

jm.gardiner said:
Mitch from CD was corrected shortly after NAB. Apparently it won't do 4k 60p out. Perhaps later on with firmware, but at launch it doesn't seem it'll be supported from canon.
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4k60 raw out is definitely in the specs and has been confirmed in many videos by Canon reps including Westfall and Thorpe.
 
Noel Evans said:
Thats my point, you can't. A LUT cannot determine the intention in the shot. A LUT takes the input values and says put those here as output values. Unless this LUT was applied on set as a colour grade with the input of the cinematographer as to where and how he/she wants things to be it doesn't work. LUT's are like clothes - and the one size fits all may work in many instances, but it's far from something you try on to size or going further bespoke clothing.
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Exactly right. This stuff is breathtakingly simple but I think there are people who have a vested interest in making it sound complicated...
 
If you have to sell your current camera to get FS7 I would wait. But if you can afford to buy it a second cam I wouldn't think twice. Rent it out and get your investment back.
 
Noel Evans said:
Thats my point, you can't. A LUT cannot determine the intention in the shot. A LUT takes the input values and says put those here as output values. Unless this LUT was applied on set as a colour grade with the input of the cinematographer as to where and how he/she wants things to be it doesn't work. LUT's are like clothes - and the one size fits all may work in many instances, but it's far from something you try on to size or going further bespoke clothing.
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If the cinematographer saw the LUT he/she chose applied on set and lit the set based on that, it would determine the cinematographer's intention. What else would we be talking about? I guess maybe I'm not clear on what use of LUTs you are protesting.
 
On my NYC day off before my shoot I dropped into The Studio at B&H where they demo all the higher end stuff and asked the guru there, just back from NAB, about the FS7 sales and how the C300 MarkII release portends and the take away was:

• FS7 flying off the shelf. It's the fastest selling model in the last 3 or 4 years.
• Specs accepted now by BBC, ESPN and many others
• Canon needs to rethink their price structure. Body to body the C300 Mk II is $8000 more.

I described what I do for a living (not an art) and he said I could get set up in a FS7 for around $10,500. If I round up to $13K for tax and doo-dads, and divide by $250 (what I put in the spreadsheet for every day I use it), I'd need 52 days of shooting to break even.

The original OP who started this (long) thread asked advice about whether to replace his Epic and choose between the FS7 and new C300. Assuming the Epic is paid for by now, and his clients are not YET clamoring for 4K, my question to Joe Jitsu is: "Why reset the profit clock if your client base is not yet demanding either a C300 II or a FS7?" A visual metaphor would be wringing out a wet towel (the Epic) and each drop represents profit. I have always waited to see what's in demand because when I deviated by being an early adopter I got burned. I have also lost money by getting a new model camera and trying to sell its benefits to clients, what's called the "Build It And They Will Come" business theory, but that doesn't work with the video biz unless you're a stand alone facility or total indie. Freelancers have to wait and see which way the market is heading in terms of most requested models.

That's my two cents. BTW, I was able to get out of B&H this time without buying anything! I am so proud of myself. Any extra money burning a hole in my pocket is going to Fidelity and Vanguard.
 
nedcam said:
I described what I do for a living (not an art) and he said I could get set up in a FS7 for around $10,500. If I round up to $13K for tax and doo-dads, and divide by $250 (what I put in the spreadsheet for every day I use it), I'd need 52 days of shooting to break even.
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I did the same math back in Nov when I was looking for a camera and was not going to buy a C300I for $12K when the FS7 was there. If I had a single shoot a week the camera would have paid for itself in a year. That didn't even take into account that i rented to a company for a few days last week. After the 52 days its all profit. That said If I owned a C300I I would keep it and wait for a while unless your able to bill your clients for the features or need to overcrank enough that additional rentals are eating budget. Despite the growing pains I am very happy with my FS7. I shoot for my own company and occasionally fill out shooting for others. It may not be the go to camera in NY or LA but so many small production companies I collaborate with its becoming a very popular camera.

nedcam said:
Assuming the Epic is paid for by now, and his clients are not YET clamoring for 4K, my question to Joe Jitsu is: "Why reset the profit clock if your client base is not yet demanding either a C300 II or a FS7?"
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This reminds me of a question I wanted to bring up a few pages back. A lot of users were posting that they are looking to the C300II in order to deliver baked in nice colour footage to hand off to clients. WYSIWYG footage. In that case why not use the C300MKI and profit. If baked in look is your bread and butter rather than shooting log for post (Clog2 will be super flat like Slog2/3 to get 15 stops in there) then chances are you wouldn't even be using the C300II to its max DR. Unless you need 4K or Overcranking I'd just abuse the hell out of the C300I.
 
nedcam said:
On my NYC day off ...
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Glad you didn't leave the forum :-)

As a C100 (original) owner I have thought hard about where to go from here post NAB: the Aussie dollar exchange is crap, the C100 MKII is not enough of a jump up for a new camera, the C300 is a bit long in the tooth, and the C300 MKII is out of my price range, the FS7 is a whole other "eco-system".

Your post put the final closure for me: I REALLY DON'T need to upgrade for probably another 18 months.
 
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Matt Turner said:
As a C100 (original) owner I have thought hard about where to go from here post NAB: the Aussie dollar exchange is crap, the C100 MKII is not enough of a jump up for a new camera, the C300 is a bit long in the tooth, and the C300 MKII is out of my price range, the FS7 is a whole other "eco-system".

Your post put the final closure for me: I REALLY DON'T need to upgrade for probably another 18 months.
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I am in the exact same situation!

I decided to finish building up my c100 rig and hold off on a purchased until after December or maybe NAB 2016.
 
Cameras I didnt buy.. Sony F5, Red Scarlet.

I mean I lined up the finance, drove to Red/Pinewood, Visuals, shot tests with them and then bailed.
 
nyvz said:
If the cinematographer saw the LUT he/she chose applied on set and lit the set based on that, it would determine the cinematographer's intention. What else would we be talking about? I guess maybe I'm not clear on what use of LUTs you are protesting.
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That's a little back to front. The cinematographer wouldnt light for a LUT. The cinematographer would light for the story. The LUT wouldnt be chosen on set, it would be created in this instance with a colourist, or by a savvy DP whilst shooting. Then of course you're good to go and apply that LUT in post. (Little side note here on the Varicam when using this process - every Varicam shot has a designated file name like other cameras, however the shot file name matches the LUT file name and comes in the same folder - no other camera does this, hope the C300 II does). It was designed for the scene. It then serves as a reference as to what and how something was shot. There's no need in this case to reference input values, because you're determining the output values as you go. But this is not the end of the market I was focusing on in my comment. If people are working this way, they most likely know what they're doing.

I'm specifically referencing someone who goes out and shoots, then comes back and drops a LUT, purchased or otherwise created by someone on the internet. Its not going to line up.

For TV / Broadcast - using a REC.709 LUT during the shoot is perfectly fine as well. I've done it and do it - but still won't apply that REC.709 LUT at the end - it's a ballpark reference only, so you have an idea. I don't like REC.709 LUTS for non TV based applications at all unless its simply for a director on set preview.

Sorry for getting this thread OT.
 
FWIW, in Houston, the c300 has a firm base with the Indie dslr crowd and it always will due to the plethora of L series lenses people already own, plus all the rigs they invested in will work with the mark2, and their 5D works as B-cam. I think it's a no-brainer that they'll go for the mark2. But there is a large Sony contingency to service here as well, people that come from ENG cameras still want a shoulder camera and servo zoom. So the FS7 is gaining ground here for that capability and because everybody wants super slo mo and 4K. In fact the #2 request I get is for 4K HFR...no can do. My month is filling up with DP's or producers coming in from Florida, Pennsylvania, London, and NYC--asking specifically for the FS7, with sLog3 scene files. I peeked at this forum to see what the Canon guys were thinking. Very civil Canon vs Sony debate going on here. It's super cool that we have choices for our different tastes and backgrounds at affordable prices.
 
I checked out the C300 MKII at the Canon Hollywood Touch and Feel event on May 20th. It is a very nice camera, the new features are great. But unless my day to day business increases dramatically, it makes more sense to rent it than buy one, for me. I have many clients who are very satisfied with the C100 MKI and the Ninja Blade that I am shooting with now. If we do the occasional 4K or higher profile project, the C300 MKII will be rented, but I don't see myself buying the camera unless we sell a show and I get to choose which cameras we want to shoot it on. And even then, I will be running the numbers to see if buying four of them and leasing back to the production would be smarter than long term rental. I do think the C300 MKII will still be a monster hit, I do think Canon will follow a similar strategy as the C300 MKI with the price drops. For those of you who are owner/operators, if you have steady clients who regularly hire you and want to shoot 4K, I can't think of a reason to NOT buy a C300 MKII, unless the clients like Sony. Then I would buy the FS7. All of my clients pretty much hate the Sony look but we are making a push to acquire some new clients lately so I am keeping an open mind, I am glad to shoot with an FS7 if it pays the bills and the clients are happy with the look.
 
Well it looks to have all the right ingredients but it feels quite.. video. Dare I say it, almost a Sony look to it.
 
According to the making of video, the screen shots show 23.98 and the shutter at 1/50????....mixing NTSC frame rate with a PAL shutter setting......might explain the look.

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

PS- the making of video was shot on the XC-10 and I thought it looked good...maybe the best looking video out there so far...
 
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