FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
Thanks for the links. Some interesting reading material.
C300: C300 Mark II or Sony FS7? Need help to pick one out, Will be buying either one
- Thread starter JoeJITSU
- Start date
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I prefer to do it in post although I have glass filters to soften but I hardly ever use them.
Friend of mine said it's overtaking broadcast industry as well. The way I see it is this:
C300II will not be so popular at the beginning (similar like C100 first edition). Only when they'll start to drop the prices it MIGHT get more popular, but who knows what Sony will bring to the table by that time? On some of the interviews on NAB I've heard that they've already sold 40000 units. If you multiply that by $8000 that makes it a massive $320 million revenue. Sony is back into their own game and I am 100% sure they'll do a lot to stay on top in this segment (by improving FS7 or bringing another revision).
C300II will not be so popular at the beginning (similar like C100 first edition). Only when they'll start to drop the prices it MIGHT get more popular, but who knows what Sony will bring to the table by that time? On some of the interviews on NAB I've heard that they've already sold 40000 units. If you multiply that by $8000 that makes it a massive $320 million revenue. Sony is back into their own game and I am 100% sure they'll do a lot to stay on top in this segment (by improving FS7 or bringing another revision).
So, this is like mixing/mastering sound for a typical rock band - it needs to have bass on a typical car speaker. And, if it sounds like crap on an upscale system, then the owner of an upscale system is SOL.
On B&H ranking, FS7 stays at the 8th spot usually. GH4 is embedded at Numero Uno (A7s is #2) and is alleged to be shipping about 5,000/mo globally. Inferring and interpolating - I figure 4,000 is closer to the real number, as FS-700 was shipping about 500/mo globally when it was the same price a couple of years ago and FS7 came on the market 7-8 months ago.
This is in the Cinema EOS forum so the tastes of posters here in favour of the C300 are hardly surprising, the Sony Forum, will be a bit different
And you'll see this type of response often. I feel the same and its just personal taste. If a producer asked me to shoot Fs7, I would. They havent fwiw. However the first thing I'd start doing is looking at the image and getting it to where Im comfortable its going to give results for the production. Thats the job.
No matter what you do, you can't emulate diffusion in post. I'm with you to some extent insofar as these days I tend not to use filters like a tobacco etc as I did in 2005, however something like a promist (choose a level), effects different parts of the image in different ways, softer skin, blooming highlights for example.
And you'll see this type of response often. I feel the same and its just personal taste. If a producer asked me to shoot Fs7, I would. They havent fwiw. However the first thing I'd start doing is looking at the image and getting it to where Im comfortable its going to give results for the production. Thats the job.
No matter what you do, you can't emulate diffusion in post. I'm with you to some extent insofar as these days I tend not to use filters like a tobacco etc as I did in 2005, however something like a promist (choose a level), effects different parts of the image in different ways, softer skin, blooming highlights for example.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
On colour I feel the FS7 is clearly good enough (and that is someone who owned a 16bit MFDB stills cam and thought nearly every other Sony camera excluding 5/55/35/65 was terrible)
The flex in post in properly exposed Slog will basically put the colour where ever you want without breaking.
Anyone getting flouro grass or magenta skies is in error.
Up to 60p the FS7 is basically good enough to shoot at any level including cinema.
So what more could the Canon bring? Lots. To a typical small crew production.. AF, probably sharper in the 72-120FPS region, maybe none of the wonks of the FS7 GUI.
Worth the extra money? In the right environment - yes.
The flex in post in properly exposed Slog will basically put the colour where ever you want without breaking.
Anyone getting flouro grass or magenta skies is in error.
Up to 60p the FS7 is basically good enough to shoot at any level including cinema.
So what more could the Canon bring? Lots. To a typical small crew production.. AF, probably sharper in the 72-120FPS region, maybe none of the wonks of the FS7 GUI.
Worth the extra money? In the right environment - yes.
I think those that are putting down 10-20k on a camera package want a little more than "good enough"
As far as demand is concerned, Canon seems to have established a solid footprint in the mid to entry level market and still commands a higher rental fee then the fs7. That is not only impressive(considering it is "out spec'd) but tells you how in-demand it still is. I have never been apart of the "get hired based on the camera I own" group, but I do think owning the mk ii will open up more doors for certain operators and bring them much closer to the f55/RED/Arri market then the fs7 will ever get.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
We are mostly discussing our personal take on how the FS7 renders color and motion. That said, if a client wants to hire me and for me to shoot with the FS7, sign me up. If I am lucky enough to sell one of our pitches and we instantly need to buy four or five cameras but can't afford $100k for the C300 MKII packages, I would buy the FS7. It's a Sony. All broadcasters and cable outlets have always loved Sonys. Nobody will chastise you that you are shooting Sonys. Most of the concepts I am developing do not have to have a smooth, cinematic look, a video-like ultra clean look will work fine. I am pretty platform preference free if the project is all about making money, I don't think too many of the concepts I am developing would be considered cinematic or high art so the compromises of the FS7 could definitely be lived with. If it is my money and I am making short films, music videos and docs, I will gladly pay double the price for the C300 MKII because to me, the picture looks better, people look better and the menu system isn't mysterious and cryptic like the FS7s. But that's just preference.
Liam Hall
Veteran
Yes, and lets not forget the C300 MKII ships with a new log profile. We won't know how that scrubs up until we try it.
We do know Canon haven't solved any of the ergonomics shortcomings of the Cinema EOS range, and that's the biggest disappointment for me. I feel like sending these camera designers my chiropractor's bill...
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I agree with Morgan that up to 60p the FS7 does look great and I found that there's actually ample room for grading. It's certainly good enough for almost everything as long as you use it sensible. The only reason to go for the C300mkII is if you'll get twice as much work due to owning the camera. Simple pure economics. To me the FS7 paid itself fast and It's now a money making machine.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I think those that are putting down 10-20k on a camera package want a little more than "good enough"
By 'good enough' I mean that the log image will go anywhere an experienced colourist wants to take it. Also the included LUTs get one from log to 709 in a simple repeatable fast cost effective manner. The file is really good enough for anything.
I can see why there are reasons to get a more expensive camera of course other cameras offer;
-Client cache/ignorance.
-solid support of PL
-sharper HFR
-better menus
etc etc.
Grug
Veteran
Honestly, I think a choice between any of the middle-tier 'owner-operator' cameras these days (C300II, F5, FS7, Red Scarlet) should really come down to which camera is most popular in your particular market. And failing any clear consensus on that, you should just go for the cheapest option (since all produce lovely images anyway).
If you're going to spend twice as much for a barebones C300II over a barebones FS7, then the Canon really has to earn more in order to earn its keep. It's a business investment, so the numbers have to add up, otherwise you're just being frivolous for no good reason.
Grading Sony images takes a little while to get your head around, but once you do the F5/FS7's image can very easily be massaged into ANY look you'd like. People who can't get good images from these Sonys simply aren't very good at grading, and need to practice.
If you're going to spend twice as much for a barebones C300II over a barebones FS7, then the Canon really has to earn more in order to earn its keep. It's a business investment, so the numbers have to add up, otherwise you're just being frivolous for no good reason.
Grading Sony images takes a little while to get your head around, but once you do the F5/FS7's image can very easily be massaged into ANY look you'd like. People who can't get good images from these Sonys simply aren't very good at grading, and need to practice.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
That's fine if you are both shooting and editing the footage you acquire.
Most times I am handing it off and it has to be 95% of the way there.
That's why I choose the Canon C-series and have pre-ordered a C300mkii.
Most times I am handing it off and it has to be 95% of the way there.
That's why I choose the Canon C-series and have pre-ordered a C300mkii.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The great grade debate.. there is no winner and cannot be.
1 shoot bakrd 709 - enjoy 7 stops of DR (any camera)
2 shoot Slog and apply a lut in post
3 shoot Clog and apply a lut in post
Slog luts are sweet, and widely available, im assuming Canon luts the same
Sony made a great leap by issuing sweet luts.
The lack of decent luts for Slog1 (F3) basically made the camera a commercial nose dive.
1 shoot bakrd 709 - enjoy 7 stops of DR (any camera)
2 shoot Slog and apply a lut in post
3 shoot Clog and apply a lut in post
Slog luts are sweet, and widely available, im assuming Canon luts the same
Sony made a great leap by issuing sweet luts.
The lack of decent luts for Slog1 (F3) basically made the camera a commercial nose dive.
ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
Matt, this is good news. I also plan on getting a C300 Mark II. We may be able to help each other on multi camera shoots. I live in Richmond. I have spoken to you a few times on REDuser.
It will be really nice to know another C300II owner in the area. Good stuff.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Absolutely my man.
I will work in Richmond as a local and I'm glad to hear of another VA member with the same camera.
Cheers.
And that is the best summary for this thread. Chose whatever will make more money in your market (or give you the best return in other form like opportunities to go for higher end productions, that in the end will give you more money). Almost everyone of us would like to own and shoot with Alexa, but we have to be realistic about this and not getting to emotional (in the end of the day it's just a piece of metal/electronics). I think a place of C300 will be completely overtaken by FS7 in few months and C300II will move up the ladder (slightly higher end). It makes complete sense to buy FS7 now (when it's hot), milk money from it and then buy C300II. And the greatest thing about FS7 is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR LENS STOCK. You just buy metabones adapter/speedbooster and you're sorted.
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I would strongly suggest you reconsider that statement. Having gone through 4 different metabones adapters I can tell you their customer service is worse than their build quality. They just aren't built to withstand the abuse of most productions. They are great for passion/hobby projects, and maybe entry level work for those getting their feet wet but relying on them to make a living is just asking for trouble.
indiawilds
Veteran
It is human psychology to defend our choice. So we will continue to bicker whether this or that camera is great. Buy the camera that works for you.
I am yet to fall in love with the Sony colours. Time is money. So I would prefer to spend the time in shooting rather than in grading the footage. So I prefer the Canon files which are born beautiful. The producers and broadcasters love that and for people who don't know me, shooting with a C300 is an added assurance that the files would be fine.
I will get the C300 Mark II the moment it is available in my country and my C300 will become the second camera. I am salivating at the features. The C300 Mark II has better features than the C500 and will take its segment.
I have never had lust for an Alexa. It is heavy and doesn't have the high ISO ability of the C300. I do a fair amount of wildlife and shoot from boats and elephant back handheld. By handheld, I mean handheld and not shoulder mounted. And I like the form factor of the C300.
When the C300 was announced in Nov 2011, there were too many people ridiculing it. At that time I had correctly predicted that the C300 along with the EF mount will become a success. Today the number of people laughing at the C300 Mark II is much lower than what we saw in 2011. However, mark my words. The C300 Mark II will be highly successful. The C300 Mark II with the 4K resolution and the high DR and the lovely canon files will also really shine in narratives, apart from the documentaries, events etc. I expect it will take a large chunk of projects from other competing cameras. It would be a step up from the existing C300 clientele in some areas, especially in narratives.
I am yet to fall in love with the Sony colours. Time is money. So I would prefer to spend the time in shooting rather than in grading the footage. So I prefer the Canon files which are born beautiful. The producers and broadcasters love that and for people who don't know me, shooting with a C300 is an added assurance that the files would be fine.
I will get the C300 Mark II the moment it is available in my country and my C300 will become the second camera. I am salivating at the features. The C300 Mark II has better features than the C500 and will take its segment.
I have never had lust for an Alexa. It is heavy and doesn't have the high ISO ability of the C300. I do a fair amount of wildlife and shoot from boats and elephant back handheld. By handheld, I mean handheld and not shoulder mounted. And I like the form factor of the C300.
When the C300 was announced in Nov 2011, there were too many people ridiculing it. At that time I had correctly predicted that the C300 along with the EF mount will become a success. Today the number of people laughing at the C300 Mark II is much lower than what we saw in 2011. However, mark my words. The C300 Mark II will be highly successful. The C300 Mark II with the 4K resolution and the high DR and the lovely canon files will also really shine in narratives, apart from the documentaries, events etc. I expect it will take a large chunk of projects from other competing cameras. It would be a step up from the existing C300 clientele in some areas, especially in narratives.