C300: C300 II vs. I Observations(no footage)

Dino

Dino

Veteran
I had a chance to compare one of my Mark I's to a Mark II on a Chroma Du Monde, resolution and flesh tone chart with a Leader 5330 scope and Flanders Scientific CM-171 monitor. Mark I had Canon CN-E 135mm, Mark II had Canon 70-200mm.

Picture Profile color points did not match in Wide DR, EOS Standard(neutral or Cine for Mark II), C-Log 1. Most vectors were close, but while green still skews toward cyan, green and cyan have much more saturation on Mark II. Overall, the Mark II was a bit colder and tended towards magenta vs. Mark I. Some matrix adjustments could help the cameras match, but not out of the box. This was using 709 mode, but other color space options tested as well.

Signal to to noise and grain structure looked very similar at many ISO's up to 20,000.

Sensitivity was very similar at various ISO's.

Dynamic range was very similar using same gammas, with Mark II having a bit more shadow detail. Overexposure on an old school chip chart looked very similar, on flesh chart Mark I seemed to hold a bit more chroma saturation.

Resolution down sampled from 4K to 1080 on Mark II looked superior on resolution chart.

120fps crop mode compared to normal mode on a resolution chart showed some softening, but actually more subtle than expected. If it's hard to see on a resolution chart, a live action scene should be very subtle.

Mark II was having side handle issues, joy stick was inop. after several reattachment attempts.

Magnification doesn't work during recording.

LCD, EVF and monitor out do not work simultaneously.

Monitor out with status overlay actually shows magnification mode and red peaking when selected by operator. That's disconcerting when being monitored by a director or client. Obviously better to monitor clean output.

Shutter speed changed when going back and forth between S&Q mode.

I could not get an AJA Ki Pro to roll from Mark II HD-SDI record output.

Obviously charts are are no substitute for real world footage, but I feel like the Mark II has made a couple steps backwards vs. Mark I. I expected to see better signal to noise, more highlight latitude and similar colorimetry compared to Mark I, which didn't materialize.

Resolution, codec quality, bit depth certainly are improvements(and 4K, of course). I hope Canon has some firmware updates that get rid of a couple of quirks.

I have mixed feelings about the Mark II, but need to do a real world shoot to get the full "picture". The Mark II look reminds me more of a Sony or Arri image than the normal Canon warmth.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the run down Dino.

I believe in the Menu's you can tell the magnification and peaking not ​to go out over the monitor terminal.
 
What sort of a resolution did you get on the two of them? Did MKII live up to the expected 2x?
 
DLD said:
What sort of a resolution did you get on the two of them? Did MKII live up to the expected 2x?
Click to expand...

The chart can only resolve 1000 lines vertically. The Mark II is the first camera I've ever tested that resolved every line with no moire or aliasing, blurring, vertically and horizontally, meaning the chart was the limiting factor, as was the 1080 monitor.
 
Dino said:
Most vectors were close, but while green still skews toward cyan, green and cyan have much more saturation on Mark II. Overall, the Mark II was a bit colder and tended towards magenta vs. Mark I.

Dynamic range was very similar using same gammas, with Mark II having a bit more shadow detail.

Mark II was having side handle issues, joy stick was inop. after several reattachment attempts.

Monitor out with status overlay actually shows magnification mode and red peaking when selected by operator. That's disconcerting when being monitored by a director or client. Obviously better to monitor clean output.
Click to expand...

I agree on the difference in look to C300mk1. It's close, but matching could be better. My mk1 & mk2 are different in the same way. Given how well C300mk1s from various production runs matched (compared to other brands), I'd say this is something Canon really knows how to do, so I hope Canon just decides to do it. :-)

I've compared side by side with Alexa, and that seems to match better than with C300mk1 (color wise).

When doing Chart comparison with C300mk2, look at both SDI and recorded image. I've found some interesting differences. I'm not an expert on chart shooting, so I'll refrain from posting compromised results. But so far my impression is that my mk2 far exceeds mk1 in DR.

Side handle requires that extra click to get the joystick to operate. It's tighter than mk1. My mk2 required quite a bit for force to get that plug in the first few times.

And I would LOVE for Canon to release to 3rd parties those proprietary Side handle plugs so we can get extension cables and control that AF/Focus Assist box in many places, not just on a Grip Relocator with a too short cable. F.ex. put handle on Gimbals, tripod handles, get a 3rd party joystick that my 1st Ac can control next to their Preston, etc, etc, etc. The focus tools are unique to the C300mk2, so I would think it's to Canon's benefit to maximize that advantage.

The allocation of signals and resolutions and overlay to Rec Out, Monitor Out, HDMI Out, LCD & EVF and which combos are tied together for overlays and behaviors leaves something to be desired. Basically it's similar to the Amira & Alexa Mini: If you want overlay to your 1st AC & Operator EVF (Graticule, f.ex.) & clean feed to Director + Client you need an Odyssey7Q or a mini-converter between Rec Out & Director + Client Monitors (not always, but often). Unlike the Amira & Alexa Mini, C300mk2 is more friendly to external recorders, so wouldn't hurt if more frame rates and signals were available on the SDI spigots, particularly during slowmo, but also 4K baseband video. Specs in manual indicates that some of this should be fixable with firmware updates.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
What kind of day rates do chart shooters get for shooting charts? I'm thinking about marketing myself for that clientele as I keep hearing of high profile DPs getting a lot of work in that field.
Click to expand...

Eric, I know you're being sarcastic, and I can tell you what video engineer day rates are, but if I'm going to get a base line on a new camera, it needs to start with charts. I've attended Varicam and C300 training classes, and charts are typically part of the program. By looking at a Chroma Du Monde chart, I can quickly learn a lot about a camera's settings.
 
Nothing particular against shooting charts, I just found it funny that parrot said "expert on chart shooting" as if there was a career in it. :P

I tend to prefer tests that have people in them, for example, a typical interview setup, probably in large part because I know more how people should look than how test charts should look. A lot of test charts shoots do have people in them as well which I find better than the ones with just a chart in them. I would guess there could be cameras and lenses which look great for charts but are terrible in real world situations, particularly with people. Of course I'm sure charts still have a lot to offer in terms of learning about a camera.

I still need to run various tests of my C300 Mark II to get comfortable with it but haven't gotten a chance yet as I've been shooting C100 shoots non-stop since I got the C300 Mark II three weeks ago.
 
Thank you for taking the time to share your observations, not questioning the validity of your observations, just wanted to add the lens factor to the conversation. I own the 70-200 II and some CN-Es (up to 85mm, not the 135mm), and to my eye the 70-200 has more magenta, I find the CN-Es much more colour neutral, so it might exaggerated the existing difference.
 
jpblack said:
Thank you for taking the time to share your observations, not questioning the validity of your observations, just wanted to add the lens factor to the conversation. I own the 70-200 II and some CN-Es (up to 85mm, not the 135mm), and to my eye the 70-200 has more magenta, I find the CN-Es much more colour neutral, so it might exaggerated the existing difference.
Click to expand...

Agreed, wish I could have used the same lenses, but not possible. Slight color shift is plausible due to lens, but not the much more saturated green and cyan.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
Nothing particular against shooting charts, I just found it funny that parrot said "expert on chart shooting" as if there was a career in it. :P
Click to expand...

I put my C300mk2 up on a XYLA 21stop chart next to an Alexa and quickly realized that I don't know how to shoot that chart properly. And that there is a lot I need to learn about my C300mk2. The chart shooting is very educational, and I can learn very quickly a lot of info that would take months to gather from shooting real world scenarios. Particularly useful with the C300mk2, f.ex. seeing how highlights and shadows react when I change camera sensitivity.

My color observations between mk1 & mk2 matches Dino's, with a mix of lenses, so I don't think it's his lens.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top