C100: C100 or the 4K BMCC

[icicle22]

"Spoken like a person who has not actually edited raw footage on a high end laptop. Is it doable? Yes. Is it a perfect experience? Not at all and wrangling all of the dng files can be a nightmare. And regarding storage being cheap......it's all relative. If I can build a 10TB Raid array for storing a months worth of raw footage, I could likely store better than a years worth of C100 AVCHD footage on that same array. So you are getting more bang for your buck."

@ Icicle ......Unfortunately you couldn't be more wrong, I work with the highest end files regularly. There are people using Mac Book retinas right now cutting broadcast & narrative using thunderbolt arrays & thunderbolt screens. Myself I don't use a laptop for editing but I do us a laptop for checking timelines whilst working with others.

In regards to footage data footprints depends on what your business model is. Mine, I don't care about how big the data size is & associated storage costs. But I do care about the quality of the image being stored at the highest resolution possible. I query the "wrangling" issue because regardless of file size it is still files & shots in a folder

Well I appreciate your reply and clarification but having a thunderbolt array attached to your MacBook doesn't truly seem like your editing on a "pure" laptop. I thought you were referring to "just a laptop". So obviously when you kick thousands into your external array which gives you tons of storage and tons of speed, you are leveling the playing field a bit. I am also not aware of all modern editors just accepting Dng files at the moment. I had to use Resolve or After Effects to see the sequences myself and convert them into usable footage for editing in Premiere. I was lead to believe that Avid needed transcoded files also.

To be clear, I think the BMC is a great camera. I just felt your comment about how easy it is to use raw files from the BMCC might be a little misleading to people trying to wrap there heads around this new workflow. Anyone thinking of changing to the RAW workflow from a traditional video format needs to be aware of the differences and believe me.....it's hard to really understand until you are doing it daily. Me......I thought the BMCC was going to be the greatest thing since slice bread and I also thought I was willing to jump through hoops and do whatever was required to be able to shoot raw. It turns out in the end I was wrong.....I do need some level of convenience when shooting and the format needs to be simpler....at least for me. I just didn't care for the workflow. But....to each his own!

 

[atarijedi]

I think one of the biggest things about the BM4k is being skipped in this discussion. It uses a global shutter on an APS-C sized Super35mm sensor. That's huge!

Filesizes will be big, but not at first. The camera isn't being shipped with RAW capabilties, it is only shipping with ProRes 422. Raw will be a later update. There were even rumours that BMD hinted at higher frame rates in the future.

I don't like how it is a touchscreen device, I prefer manual controls, but it has LANC remote capabilities, which will come in handy.

 

[Surf it Mike]

@ Icicle....This is the big question mark with BMC .......the usability of 4K DNG raw files. No one knows yet . In my previous posts I was referring to Sony, Red, Arri files I have no idea about DNG raw except having heard it is bloated for what it delivers...is this true ?

Atarijedi nails the point I was trying to make. The BMC does not just do raw but also outputs Pro-rez or DNXHD (does the 2.5 k version do the same ?) @ HD rez. This is the sleeper issue everyone seems to be missing whilst hung up on the 4K. To me the strength of this camera is in its versatility of codecs whilst on the downside delivering less DR than I would like .

 

[bengiles]

I think one of the biggest things about the BM4k is being skipped in this discussion.

That, and the fact that it doesn't actually exist.

Yet.

Probably.

Maybe.

I put an order in for the original BMCC last year and it never materialised. I really like the "idea" of what BM are all about - I'm just a little disillusioned with their grasp of reality. I wonder if their penchant for talking about stuff too soon will be their undoing.

All talk, no trousers?

Ben.

 

[atarijedi]

That, and the fact that it doesn't actually exist.

Yet.

Probably.

Maybe.

I put an order in for the original BMCC last year and it never materialised. I really like the "idea" of what BM are all about - I'm just a little disillusioned with their grasp of reality. I wonder if their penchant for talking about stuff too soon will be their undoing.

All talk, no trousers?

Ben.

The problems they had weren't because of them though, but manufacturer issues with either the sensor or an OLPF or something. The BM4k is to ship in July, so we will see. I don't see how one can be disillusioned after only 1 product mishap. They do make lots of other products and have had no issues with those.

 

[atarijedi]

@ Icicle....This is the big question mark with BMC .......the usability of 4K DNG raw files. No one knows yet . In my previous posts I was referring to Sony, Red, Arri files I have no idea about DNG raw except having heard it is bloated for what it delivers...is this true ?

Atarijedi nails the point I was trying to make. The BMC does not just do raw but also outputs Pro-rez or DNXHD (does the 2.5 k version do the same ?) @ HD rez. This is the sleeper issue everyone seems to be missing whilst hung up on the 4K. To me the strength of this camera is in its versatility of codecs whilst on the downside delivering less DR than I would like .

If you own a Canon DSLR, it may be supported by Magic Lanterns efforts to put out RAW, like the 5dMk2 and 5dMk3. There are also CinemaDNG and CineForm converters for the RAW output. There are also converters for CinemaDNG to ProRes 4444 or ProRes 422 as well.

My point is that you would be able to test the workflow with CinemaDNG raw, CineForm Raw, and high bitrate ProRes.

 

[bengiles]

I don't see how one can be disillusioned after only 1 product mishap. They do make lots of other products and have had no issues with those.

I think I agree with you in principle.

In terms of context, my own experience of BM products - namely, their ATEM products which let me down a couple of years ago and, last week; an Intensity Shuttle - returned because it doesn't support ProRes 1080P25 in FCP 7 (BM UK Customer Services: "it's not a commonly used codec/framerate... ??????!!!!!) and the cinema camera last year, are the basis for my comments.

There's a lot of love out there for BM - but it seems to me to be largely based on what they say, rather than what they do. This sceptic is not completely won over.

In the space of just under 2 years, they have created an illusion of a low-cost raw workflow, a virtual industry niche, a concept. In my 25-odd years in the business, I have never experienced such a loyal following for a company, product or concept, based purely on blind faith - that isn't a religion.

Utterly brilliant. I expect their marketing manager will one day clean up on the after-dinner speech circuit... dressed in his/her golden threads/new clothes...

So back to the thread - do you want something that works, has an established user community that are making good money from it and is proven? Or can you wait for an indeterminable amount of time and be prepared for the potential to be disappointed and back exactly where you are now?

For me, it's about whether I want a working tool or an expensive toy.

Ben.

 

[mhood]

The problems they had weren't because of them though, but manufacturer issues with either the sensor or an OLPF or something. The BM4k is to ship in July, so we will see. I don't see how one can be disillusioned after only 1 product mishap. They do make lots of other products and have had no issues with those.

They had missed the July 2012 shipping on the BMCC by several months before the sensor issues surfaced. Check with people w8ing in the BMCC-MFT queue since the December 2012 shipping promise...they are incensed. It's been a rocky ride with BMD...no doubt about it. IMO, their marketing model is nothing to be proud of at all. But most galling is the lack of transparency...getting information out of BMD is like pulling hen's teeth.

 

[icicle22]

Lets not forget too, that some of us waited 10 months to receive our BMCCs when we ordered on Day 1. Then, barely more than 30 days after I got it, they announce newer models that I would have been more interested in to start with. I know technology moves fast....but this situation is ridiculous. If I preorder an iphone 4s and have to wait 9 months before Apple ships it, they better not release the iphone 5 right after I finally get the 4s or people will be getting annoyed. I found this severely frustrating. I for one am glad to have my head out of the BMD game and focused on filming and producing again. I know Canon moves very slow also but they meet deadlines and I know exactly what to expect. BMD is an unknown quantity to me in the camera game. I'll wait until they get it all together before considering them again.

Oh...one last thing that has me a bit bitter with BMD. Last year they were adamant that there was no way to create a s35m camera in this price range. They were adamant there was no way to have active MTF mounts at this price range. They basically told us....if you want cinema quality in this price range.....you have to accept many major tradeoffs. And we did. Like sheep. Then before they have even met the demand of the original camera, they announce another one that is only a bit more cost and basically counter all the points they pushed on us the first time around. These features that weren't doable suddenly were....and at 4K too! It felt like a political ploy....like a politician who makes promises and then backs out of them....once they have your vote.

I know some of these things seem petty, but they go a long way to securing customer loyalty. And as other have pointed out, the main loyalty seems to be generated by the illusion that BMD is breaking ground with these cameras....but in reality having trouble backing it all up with 100% satisfaction at this point.

 

[atarijedi]

In my 25-odd years in the business, I have never experienced such a loyal following for a company, product or concept, based purely on blind faith

You don't remember the fervour over the Red One?

 

[Kholi]

Oh...one last thing that has me a bit bitter with BMD. Last year they were adamant that there was no way to create a s35m camera in this price range. They were adamant there was no way to have active MTF mounts at this price range. .

They repeatedly said they could not produce an S35 camera with the specs that they wanted. 13 stops, etc. And they haven't done that, they've already said that the 4K camera will have less DR.

They also said absolutely nothing about active MFT at the price range, they simply said they didn't make one and to redo the camera for an active MFT mount would be a significant redesign.

 

[Shawnvfx]

hahaha, I would stick with a big brand, which bullies my money regularly. But it just feels more reliable.

for Raw I stick with 5D3 now lol, enough.

 

[Curnsie]

They had missed the July 2012 shipping on the BMCC by several months before the sensor issues surfaced. Check with people w8ing in the BMCC-MFT queue since the December 2012 shipping promise...they are incensed. It's been a rocky ride with BMD...no doubt about it. IMO, their marketing model is nothing to be proud of at all. But most galling is the lack of transparency...getting information out of BMD is like pulling hen's teeth.

when I was about to buy a 2k ef mount BMCC the UK supplier told me the mtf version won't ship until the ef versions have been delivered to all the buyers in the waiting list!! I put him over it and he confirmed it again... I would have been number 11 in his list for an ef version.

 

[alex1]

I am going through the same situation and which camera to buy.

4K cam no doubt will have the best image quality over all at either 12-bit RAW or 10-bit prores.

The C100 on the other hand wins on being a lot easier to use overall, easier to use media, longer life batteries, etc.

So it really comes down to what is more important to you? Image quality or usability? Not that the c100 has a bad quality image or that the 4k cam is that hard to use with half a brain, but it does come down to preference.

Just a note with the 5D RAW. I used it this past weekend and I personally wasn't that impressed. Constant dropped frames even on my 1000x CF cards, could not get record times longer than a few minutes and no 1080p yet! Maybe some fixes will come later on, but as of now it isn't something I would even want to shoot a short film with. A step in the right direction, but so many bugs need to be fixed.

 

[ntouched]

You want to read a few hundred post (which is perfectly fine) or do you want to go out and shoot some nice footage.

Call Texas Media Systems and get your hands on that Canon C100!!!

You won't regret your purchase!!! It has done wonders out of the box for me!

Seriously, as Dusty stated, go get something you can use TODAY!!!! Get a BMCC in a few months.........