C100: C100 or the 4K BMCC

M

mactas

Member
Hi there,

I am a videographer that owns a 60D and I am looking to upgrade my kit. I have built up a collection of L series lenses but really need a camera that has it all built in rather than faffing about with dual recording and having to keep start new clips when doing interviews. I am seriously considering the C100. It has ND's, ef mount, sd recording etc which is great but I can't help looking at its flaws. Poor EVF, no slow mo, avchd, price and thinking that firstly how many years will this camera give me and is the upcoming 4K BMCC a better choice? The bmcc has better DR but then worse audio connections and will use up a lot more disk space. Plus I will need to purchase ssd drives, nd filters, audio connections to get it up and running. What would people recommend in my current situation? I don't want to spend more than say £4000.

Many thanks
 
I think the BMCC will be a complex and rewarding 'cinema tool'

The C100 is a handy to use 'cinematic video camera'

Personally Id only own the BMCC after owning a simpler camera too unless you only shoot drama/pop vids

BTW the bmc does not have slomo either

one thing - file sizes; if you transcode to pro res from a C100 you may end up with similar data mass on you computer??

S
 
Yeah slow motion isn't really a deal breaker. I have quite a bit of experience operating Ex1s, Canons and JVCs. Do you think the BMCC would be a difficult transition then? So many people seem to be jumping on the BMCC bandwagon yet there hasn't been any footage released yet of the 4k camera and will they struggle to get them out this summer?
 
I think any S35 chip camera is a huge leap (mega hard to use) compared to EX1 etc (I own an EX1 and various large sensr cams)

going to 4k, no ND, funky sound, may be a leap too far

As for delivery dates.. well I have no faith in BMC putting product on the shelf - if the cameras come they come

S
 
here's the deal...

Do you want to upgrade by the end of this year?

Walk into any reputable video camera store, walk out with a brand new C100 ready to shoot right out of the box.

OR

Place your pre-order for a BMC 4K and hope that you see your camera sometime in the future. In the meantime you can stock up on all the other good items like, ND and IR filters, sound solutions, battery solution, an SDi monitor and evf, your SSD's and transfer dock. Maybe a cage and some rigging, maybe buy bigger sliders and jibs that can handle the weight of the BMC4k...Oh, and while your at it, you might wanna consider buying a new computer that can handle 4K. Don't forget your 4K monitor, tons of hard drive space with back up hard drives too. Make sure those hard drives are super fast too. I'd say with a very conservative estimate you might be looking at $5000-$10000 just in computer purchase just to edit and view the 4k comfortably.

OR

Walk into any reputable video camera store, walk out with a brand new C100 ready to shoot right out of the box.
 
That is a very good point. I would like to upgrade very soon and to me the c100 looks like the natural upgrade from a DSLR and a lot of its shortcomings can be resolved with additions of kit. Ninja recorder, zacuto etc. Now I just need to take the plunge and purchase.
 
dustylense said:
here's the deal...


........ In the meantime you can stock up on all the other good items like, ND and IR filters, sound solutions, battery solution, an SDi monitor and evf, your SSD's and transfer dock. Maybe a cage and some rigging, maybe buy bigger sliders and jibs that can handle the weight of the BMC4k...Oh, and while your at it, you might wanna consider buying a new computer that can handle 4K. Don't forget your 4K monitor, tons of hard drive space with back up hard drives too. Make sure those hard drives are super fast too. I'd say with a very conservative estimate you might be looking at $5000-$10000 just in computer purchase just to edit and view the 4k comfortably.

OR

Walk into any reputable video camera store, walk out with a brand new C100 ready to shoot right out of the box.
Click to expand...

Thats exactly the point...to invest in some of these cameras...the outlay would be huge with new computer etc like you said.

I have only held off on buying a C100 already because of no 50p...I want to shoot Sports....but I am coming around to your way of thinking....and may just sell my EX3 and buy a C100 and add a C300 down the road or an updated C200 or whatever is next.
 
dustylense said:
Place your pre-order for a BMC 4K and hope that you see your camera sometime in the future. In the meantime you can stock up on all the other good items like, ND and IR filters, sound solutions, battery solution, an SDi monitor and evf, your SSD's and transfer dock. Maybe a cage and some rigging, maybe buy bigger sliders and jibs that can handle the weight of the BMC4k...Oh, and while your at it, you might wanna consider buying a new computer that can handle 4K. Don't forget your 4K monitor, tons of hard drive space with back up hard drives too. Make sure those hard drives are super fast too. I'd say with a very conservative estimate you might be looking at $5000-$10000 just in computer purchase just to edit and view the 4k comfortably.

OR

Walk into any reputable video camera store, walk out with a brand new C100 ready to shoot right out of the box.
Click to expand...

Listen to dustylense. He absolutely nailed it.
 
I'm really not sure that 'BMCC 4K *or* C100' is an answerable question. Golf cart or Humvee? Peanut butter or toothpaste?

The *and* question is a lot easier for people making money with these toys. But one can't really make a quantitative statement and say 'this is better than that'.

@Mactas - pop down to a dealer and put cameras in your hand. IMHO, just get the C100 and enjoy the huge benefits of its ergonomics and comforting throwback to your DSLRs. Nobody's going to hire you *because* you have a BMCC, they'll hire you because they trust you to select the most appropriate kit to deliver them their amazing video. You could also breeze past the FS100 and understand what that brings to the party (1080p50 - if you like that sort of thing, 50% slomo, basic timelapse, amazing lens choice) whilst also appreciating the cost (ergonomics, highlight handling, resolution). Why not also look at the PMW200 if only to understand why it's worth an extra £2k on your budget? If you're earning money on these tools, can the extra 2K be amortised over 2 years working life (sorry, I married my accountant) especially if you offset that by selling off some L-Glass?

No 'Best Camera' - only 'Best for you'. Furthermore, I think the 'New Now' is that we don't own THE ONE camera (e.g. PMW500), we own several so we can get the best tool for the job. Check out the presentation by Malcolm Gladwell:

http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html

Yes, cameras are like Spaghetti Sauce. You need an all-in-one camera, a GoPro, a Big Sensor camera, a DSLR, etc. Buy a C100, earn lots of money with it, buy the BMCC4K when its shipping and enjoy both. :)
 
Some more points to ponder.....
- 4KBMC will possibly be a great camera..when it comes out for its price point....less than a C100
- C100 is a good camera right now.
- C100 records a poor codec, hence people hanging external recorders of them driving up the price of the initial purchase.
- BMC can record (from my understanding) either in Pro Rez or DNXHD @ 1080 on board.
- Working in Raw is easy ......all major NLEs now downscale RAW files, playback & editing no big deal .......even on laptops.
- Computer horsepower is soaked up using "predictive frame' formats like H264 on multiple video lines or long form editing.
- Hard drive prices are falling through the floor, storage costs shrinking exponentially...this argument should be buried in the naughties where it belongs.
- Yes there are questions ref the file size of BMCs RAW files it will be interesting to see the data load but I'm sure BM has something up there sleeve.
- & finally............... What will happen to C100 prices when the BMC4K goes live ?
 
Surf it Mike said:
What will happen to C100 prices when the BMC4K goes live ?
Click to expand...

What happened to C100 sales/prices when BMCC-EF finally shipped? The BMCC-4K is a whole new chip from a whole new company. We've yet to see minute one of footage and the camera is "shipping in July"...less than 60 days.
 
Surf it Mike said:
Some more points to ponder.....

- Working in Raw is easy ......all major NLEs now downscale RAW files, playback & editing no big deal .......even on laptops.
- Hard drive prices are falling through the floor, storage costs shrinking exponentially...this argument should be buried in the naughties where it belongs.
QUOTE]

Spoken like a person who has not actually edited raw footage on a high end laptop. Is it doable? Yes. Is it a perfect experience? Not at all and wrangling all of the dng files can be a nightmare. And regarding storage being cheap......it's all relative. If I can build a 10TB Raid array for storing a months worth of raw footage, I could likely store better than a years worth of C100 AVCHD footage on that same array. So you are getting more bang for your buck.

I guess I see the whole "hard drives are cheap" argument like saying gas is really cheap so you shouldn't consider buying an economical car vs. a huge truck.

I owned the BMCC and for me personally the RAW workflow was less than ideal. When I sold it and got the C100 I was so surprised how much I can store on a my same arrays. I would not be exaggerating if I said that I doubt I'll need to worry about storage for several years now. This is with 3 levels of redundancy. While I still had the BMCC I was getting concerned that I'd be needing to add additional storage in the next few months.

Horses for courses as they say. I think each tool is good when used right but I cannot recommend the BMCC 4k for anyone who is not strictly doing narrative and super high end commercial production. The workflow it just to convoluted for fast turnaround. At least for me.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Matt,

I realise the 2 cameras are a bit chalk and cheese but they do fall into the same price bracket and have the same lens mount. I think to me it sounds like the bmcc workflow is a bit of a nightmare and having used the c100 before it seems like a good choice. The fs100 seems like a cheap build to me and wouldn't it cost quite a bit to get my L lenses up and running on it? The pmw 200 looks like a suped up Z7/ex1 which is a camera I have bad memories of. Not a big fan of the sony image and I doubt it will produce as nice results as the c100. I could be wrong.
 
MattDavis said:
Nobody's going to hire you *because* you have a BMCC,
Click to expand...

Well Im not so sure about that.

Actually - they wont - true.

But if, and only if, it enables you to work to an extremely high standard then you will get hired

Of course most high standard footage has more to do with subject and the like

S
 
We just used the C300 for a job and I'm amazed by the sharpness and general quality. The C100 tests I've seen look similar. So nice having real XLRs, waveforms, good peaking, etc.
 
Surf it Mike said:
Some more points to ponder.....
- 4KBMC will possibly be a great camera..when it comes out for its price point....less than a C100
- C100 is a good camera right now.
- C100 records a poor codec, hence people hanging external recorders of them driving up the price of the initial purchase.
- BMC can record (from my understanding) either in Pro Rez or DNXHD @ 1080 on board.
- Working in Raw is easy ......all major NLEs now downscale RAW files, playback & editing no big deal .......even on laptops.
- Computer horsepower is soaked up using "predictive frame' formats like H264 on multiple video lines or long form editing.
- Hard drive prices are falling through the floor, storage costs shrinking exponentially...this argument should be buried in the naughties where it belongs.
- Yes there are questions ref the file size of BMCs RAW files it will be interesting to see the data load but I'm sure BM has something up there sleeve.
- & finally............... What will happen to C100 prices when the BMC4K goes live ?
Click to expand...

I'm sure the BMC4k will have a nice if not great image.
My laptop can playback 4K files. It's once you start editing a 20 or 30 minute piece where the beefy computer starts looking real good. You can proxy edit of course. But if you want to deliver the piece in 4K, you're gonna outgrow the laptop or computer that you are using now to edit say HDSLR footage real quick. Playback is one thing. Delivering a video over 5 minutes in 4K is another thing.

Hard drive space is getting cheaper. DOes that mean your ready for 4K? I've never said to myself "Oh looky, that HD is $15 cheaper this week. I'm gonna start shooting 4K".

C100 and over cranking? It's possible. Here is a video showing just that.

It just really boils down to what you shoot. If you have the need for fast turnarounds with a high quality image, the C100 is a fantastic camera. You're essentially shooting 4k and the delivering 1080p in camera on the fly. The codec is yes in fact, AVCHD. But trust users of the camera that it holds up very well. 9 of 10 users report that there is very little difference in attaching an external recorder. Let's just say that if you have been working on HDslrs the past couple years you're going to be amazed at the quality and image coming from the C100. I will not argue that is RAW or 10 bit is your dream, then the BMC might be for you. Will it make you a better filmmaker or video guy? NO. Raw will just slow you down. But the end result "image" wise will benefit. But thats just the science of it.

The BMC4k is $3995. Looks lovely on the wallet indeed. But like I said, there are lots of parts that need to go with that camera to make it functional and they add up real quick. If you already have most that stuff, fine. If not, then expect the purchase of the BMC4k to set you back at least and the very least $7000.

If you're a fast working shooter, the BMC is NOT the camera for you. If you're a lowlight shooter, the BMC is NOT the camera for you. If your a guerrilla shooter, the BMC is NOT the camera for you. And if you are a big shot working on big productions, why would you shoot on the BMC and not the F55, Red, or Alexa? If you're a one man band that shoots a variety of work like weddings, events, corporate, music videos, documentary, or just for the fun of it, the C100 will blow your mind and you will find the camera is actually very fun and easy to shoot with. If you are a narrative indie filmmaker, keep in mind that the winning film at Cannes was shot on two C300's. Does that make the C300/100 the best camera? No. But it shows that it's very capable of capturing and conveying a story.

What will happen to the C100 prices once the BMC4K goes live? Well, like Mhood says, it's less than 60 days out and we haven't seen a single minute of footage from the camera. We haven't even seen a single FRAME GRAB from the camera. ANd here BMD is saying "ships this July 29th". Where have we heard that before? Oh that's right, from BMD themselves last year. People are still waiting for the BMCv1 EF to this very day around the world. Were the hell is the BMC/MTF announced last September?

Look, I'm not a BMC hater. I had one. They are capable of making fine images. THey are also capable of NOT making fine images (moire, IR issues). For my needs, the camera got in the way of shooting. I liked it and hated it at the same time. With the C100, I just like it. It's a joy to use much less a joy to just hold. It has pretty much everything I need to shoot built right into the camera. It sees in the dark better than I can. People complain about the EVF but I have little issue with it and it works just fine (it could be better but it is what it is and it works). I can shoot all day with a single SD card and 2 batteries. I can hand hold it all day as well as it should be the baseline of video camera ergonomics. Everything you need to adjust is basically at your fingertips on the many function buttons on the camera body (which are all programable too). And it has a great camera support piece of mind as well. There are Canon service centers all over the place. BMC's, just one that I know of and have read many horror stories of getting your camera serviced and returned in a timely fashion. BMD has put out 3 firmware updates thus far that basically have done very little to improve the camera. To me, they are more interested in creating buzz with new cameras then supporting (and shipping) existing cameras. But still, I like what they have done and I like what they might do. I'm just waiting for them to catch up as a camera manufacturer. Until then......

And if you want RAW? Well it looks like the ML team has done just that for many people with the easy to get (if not already gotten) Canon HDlsr. I win because I already have the MK3. Having shot with the BMC my feelings with the 5D/ML is that I have RAW again if I need it. Good enough for me...

"But the BMC is a cinema camera"! OK. I gauge it like this. First, you need to get one. Second, I have two Vimeo groups that I follow. THe BMC and the C100. THe BMC (that I joined a year ago) has 10 pages of videos. THe C100 (That I joined 2 months ago) has 37 pages. Nearly half of the BMC videos are test grades of other peoples footage and NAB reports. Nearly all of the C100 videos are user videos of complete projects. Both groups have very nice looking videos and very poor looking videos. But here is the most important part. Nearly everyone that compares these two camera systems compares them off of what? THE INTERNET and a compressed streamed video. It just blows my mind. I hear things like, "I just don't like the look of that camera". WTF? Try saying instead, "I just don't like the look that somebody did with that camera". Again, I've had/have both the C100 and the BMC. I've seen, felt, worked with, and judged with my own eyes the two cameras on my computer. Each camera has it's advantage and disadvantage. It's the built in's combined with the image quality of the C100 that (to and for ME) gives the overall edge to the C100 and that is "MY" opinion. As a person that birthed from the HDSLR revolution, the C100 gave me in a camera what I've wanted for the past 5 years.

Two videos that stand out to me:

THe first was what I still use to defend the HDSLR. THis film was made before the 24p option and even more, before manual control of the Canon 5dMK2.
It's too me, proof that it's who is shooting and what they are shooting.

The second comes from our very own Noel Evans. This chap makes the Canon C cams shine shine shine! Let the pictures do the talking here:
The interior scenes are just wonderfully shot, lit, and captured.

There is and NEVER will be a perfect camera. But there are comfortable ones that do the job. Hold and use the Canon C100 or 300 and you'll realize that real quick....
 
The 2 cameras are very different and are designed as such. The C100 is more of a jack of all trades and produces excellent imagery while the BMCC is aimed at 4k film and narrative and will struggle outside of those areas. The c100 will pretty much work straight out of the box except for spare SD cards and batteries. The BMCC will need more expenditure to make it usable like SSDs, external batteries, external monitor, rig, storage for Raw, etc, not to mention more light for filming = less of a one man camera?

I looked at the 2k BMCC but decided it was the wrong camera for me. I bought the C100 because of the varied work I take on and because it seemed like the next step up for me from a 550d and 5D mk2. I'm a one man band so i need a camera that isn't hard to set up and doesn't require a lot of prep like lighting. So far I'm really happy with it.

These are some of my thoughts based on a couple of months of searching. In the end only you can decide what one will work for you...
 
"Spoken like a person who has not actually edited raw footage on a high end laptop. Is it doable? Yes. Is it a perfect experience? Not at all and wrangling all of the dng files can be a nightmare. And regarding storage being cheap......it's all relative. If I can build a 10TB Raid array for storing a months worth of raw footage, I could likely store better than a years worth of C100 AVCHD footage on that same array. So you are getting more bang for your buck."

@ Icicle ......Unfortunately you couldn't be more wrong, I work with the highest end files regularly. There are people using Mac Book retinas right now cutting broadcast & narrative using thunderbolt arrays & thunderbolt screens. Myself I don't use a laptop for editing but I do us a laptop for checking timelines whilst working with others.

In regards to footage data footprints depends on what your business model is. Mine, I don't care about how big the data size is & associated storage costs. But I do care about the quality of the image being stored at the highest resolution possible. I query the "wrangling" issue because regardless of file size it is still files & shots in a folder

@ Dustylens. I'm with you there ..every camera has its strengths or was that weaknesses. Right now there is hyper camera development at a price we couldn't have imagined 5 years ago. So much choice for so few dollars. Yes the BMC 4K is an "IF" at the moment. I was trying to point out was that you don't have to use the 4K feature you can use it as a HD camera which in "theory" outputs a better codec than AVCHD with corresponding smaller file size than 4K.
 
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Curnsie said:
The 2 cameras are very different and are designed as such. The C100 is more of a jack of all trades and produces excellent imagery while the BMCC is aimed at 4k film and narrative and will struggle outside of those areas. The c100 will pretty much work straight out of the box except for spare SD cards and batteries. The BMCC will need more expenditure to make it usable like SSDs, external batteries, external monitor, rig, storage for Raw, etc, not to mention more light for filming = less of a one man camera?

I looked at the 2k BMCC but decided it was the wrong camera for me. I bought the C100 because of the varied work I take on and because it seemed like the next step up for me from a 550d and 5D mk2. I'm a one man band so i need a camera that isn't hard to set up and doesn't require a lot of prep like lighting. So far I'm really happy with it.

These are some of my thoughts based on a couple of months of searching. In the end only you can decide what one will work for you...
Click to expand...

This is a very fair unbiased answer.
 
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