FS7: Buying Shogun Inferno; is the XDCA extension really necessary?

[moldcad]

Guys - I need to make up my mind really fast (as mentioned here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...nstead&p=1986672698&viewfull=1#post1986672698). Sorry fro cross-posting, but I would really appreciate your advise:

I'm trying to establish whether to take full advantage of Shogun Inferno recording I will also need the XDCA-FS7 extension module?

I'm not necessarily after RAW (though it might become a welcome option down the road), but would like to record the best possible quality DNxHR for my HDR grading in Resolve under Windows hence not Prores).

Is recording RAW straight from the FS7 and into DNxHR HQX on the Shogun my best option?

Thanks,

Piotr

 

[broughtonfilm]

Is recording RAW straight from the FS7 and into DNxHR HQX on the Shogun my best option?


Piotr

You can't record RAW straight from FS7, XDCA extension is needed. I doubt that the option to record RAW straight from FS7 (like in FS5) will ever come to FS7 via firmware update, XDCA will be always needed.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Please note that currently the Odyssey7Q+ with RAW Option is the only device to record in RAW and ProRes in all of the available frame rates from the FS7. The other recorder notes that it will be a future update to get many, but not all, of the available formats.

I am told by Sony that the HDMI output of the FS7 is 8-bit 4:2:0, a far cry from the 10-bit 4:2:2 available to be derived from the RAW output through the XDCA extension.

 

[moldcad]

I am told by Sony that the HDMI output of the FS7 is 8-bit 4:2:0, a far cry from the 10-bit 4:2:2 available to be derived from the RAW output through the XDCA extension.

Hi Mitch - this is exactly the reason I'm considering spending this silly amount of cash on the XDCA extender. But I was under impression that the HDMI is only 8-bit in formats above 30p (like UHD or 4K @50/60p) - would it be true it's limited to 8 bit and sub-sampled at 4:2:0 in all fps formats, even 24/25/30p?

If so, Sony is "promoting" sales of the XDCA unit quite aggressively.

Piotr

PS. Mitch - sorry for my lame question (haven't got time now to do a proper Search & Read); please name those formats which only Odyssey+ is capable of and "the other recorder" is not. Thanks!

 

[markfpv]

There are many conflicting reports about the hdmi out spec from the FS7... and I certainly value and believe Mitch - but Alister C & others also say that it is 10 bit 4:2:2.... I wish Sony would officially state this in a spec somewhere

 

[Clermond]

you found a B-Camera already?

 

[DLD]

... I wish Sony would officially state this in a spec somewhere

The rule of thumb is that, if it were indeed 10-bit 4:2:2, then it'd be advertised as such. Everywhere.

 

[markfpv]

Don't disagree with that... and that probably is a good rule of thumb - but again, I wish the manufacturer themselves, in this case, Sony, would officially state the spec somewhere. My point was that all the info out there seems to come from other sources.

 

[markfpv]

And as I just posted in another thread... with my FS7 - shooting UHD @ 24 and outputting same via hdmi to a PIX e5 recorder, the recorder tells me the signal it's getting is 10bit.
With my 6300 - hdmi out in all configs says 8 bit. Not saying this confirms anything....

 

[Mitch Gross]

PS. Mitch - sorry for my lame question (haven't got time now to do a proper Search & Read); please name those formats which only Odyssey+ is capable of and "the other recorder" is not. Thanks!

Here is what the Odyssey7Q+ with RAW Bundle can capture from the FS7 camera with XDCA RAW output.
4K RAW -> 4K RAW CinemaDNG 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
2K RAW -> 2K RAW CinemaDNG 24, 25, 30, 50, 60, 100, 120, 200, 240
4K RAW -> 4K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> UHD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> 2K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
2K RAW -> 2K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 100, 120, 200, 240
2K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 100, 120, 200, 240


From the above list, these are what are unique to Odyssey (note that it is the majority of modes).
4K RAW -> 4K RAW CinemaDNG 50, 60
2K RAW -> 2K RAW CinemaDNG 200, 240
4K RAW -> UHD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> 2K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
2K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 100, 120, 200, 240

While this is based on the spec lists as published on the respective manufacturers, please note two additional items:
- I did not exclude announced but incomplete record modes. The other manufacturer's CinemaDNG recording is currently a beta release only, and the 2K RAW -> 2K ProRes 200 & 240 is noted as a future release.
- Recording FSRAW in 4K 50 & 60 or 2K 200 & 240 is only ever possible on the Odyssey7Q+ because it requires two SATA bus ports. There is too much data to fit through a single SATA port. The Odyssey7Q+ offers dual SSD recording for these modes, but all other recorders have only a single SSD capacity.

 

[DLD]

And as I just posted in another thread... with my FS7 - shooting UHD @ 24 and outputting same via hdmi to a PIX e5 recorder, the recorder tells me the signal it's getting is 10bit ...

It's possible and probable - but one needs a PIX-E5 expert here to be certain - that the external recorder manufacturer added two extra (floating?) bits with FS-7 but couldn't do so with A6300. From an engineering perspective, this has been done before and, I believe, CD products had this feature as well.*

*Subject to Mitch's confirmation.

 

[moldcad]

you found a B-Camera already?

Thanks for asking The answer is Yes (it will be a full-frame A7, not the APS-C A6500), and No (still debating between A7Rii and A7Sii). And since you asked, let me use this opportunity to present my reasoning here, and once again ask you fellow members for the advise...

OK, so the main pros for the A7Rii are:

- phase-detection AF
- non-compromised stills camera
- ability to use both FF (my SELP 28-135mm F4.0 will finally get the use it's been designed for, albeit only in good light due to low sensitivity/high noise in this mode)...
- ... and in crop (APS-C) mode (my Canon glass with the extra stop from Speed Booster can be used in lower-light situations)

The main advantage of the A7Sii is of course its almost noctovisor sensitivity, with the super-large pixels (just 12MP on an FF sensor)...

So - looking at the brightness/noise comparison below - with the A7Rii, I'm hoping the extra stop my F4.0 Canon lenses will get from Speed Booster in APS-C mode will make the middle row (A7Rii in crop) comparable to the upper row (same lenses with a non-boosting adapter (i.e. only F4.0) on A7Sii).

Will I be disappointed with video from A7Rii, and to avoid it - should I be getting the A7Sii instead? This is my main dilemma, so please vote! Thanks in advance for comments on whether my reasoning above make sense

Piotr

 

[Mitch Gross]

It's possible and probable - but one needs a PIX-E5 expert here to be certain - that the external recorder manufacturer added two extra (floating?) bits with FS-7 but couldn't do so with A6300. From an engineering perspective, this has been done before and, I believe, CD products had this feature as well.*

*Subject to Mitch's confirmation.

Not exactly how it works, but you're on the right track. SDI 4:2:2 signal structure is locked to 10-bit, so an 8-bit signal transported through it is padded out to 10-bit in the camera (not by us). HDMI can be structured as 8-bit or 10-bit, but if a camera has both SDI and HDMI outputs then it is usually easier to run the HDMI chip at 10-bit and pad the signal, even if the actual data is 8-bit. The same is true for a camera that might be UHD & HD capable, meaning that the camera architecture is easiest to set the HDMI to either 10-bit or 8-bit and either pass or chop one of the two signals.

Cases in point:
FS7 has 10-bit in HD and pads up the UHD from 8-bit to 10-bit. Thus it always reads 10-bit HDMI feed.
A6300 has 8-bit in UHD, and restricts HD to 8-bit as well. Thus it always reads 8-bit HDMI feed.

It isn't about what the pipe can hold, it's about what's pushed through.

I believe there are ways you can analyze the data to determine the bit depth yourselves. I'll leave that to others better versed in Adobe or Resolve to explore.

 

[Clermond]

Thanks for asking
...
.. This is my main dilemma, so please vote! Thanks in advance for comments on whether my reasoning above make sense

I admit I was kidding with this question.
And regarding your dilemmas.. I keep my kidding for myself

 

[jpham]

is there any quality different between Prores 4:2:2 and Prores Proxy at 4K?
I saw that on the new firmware, but didn't try it out, is it 30% data-rate of Prores 4:2:2 according to Apple? is that like 30% bit-rate ? is it 72Mbits video bit-rate - I'm assuming Prores 4:2:2 24fps - 240Mbps at 4K?

Also what is the FS7 CCD sensor resolving power?, I'm wonder did anyone ever do one of those Air Force resolving test like photo-camera but using FS7 video at 4K ?

 

[Mitch Gross]

is there any quality different between Prores 4:2:2 and Prores Proxy at 4K?
I saw that on the new firmware, but didn't try it out, is it 30% data-rate of Prores 4:2:2 according to Apple? is that like 30% bit-rate ? is it 72Mbits video bit-rate - I'm assuming Prores 4:2:2 24fps - 240Mbps at 4K?

Also what is the FS7 CCD sensor resolving power?, I'm wonder did anyone ever do one of those Air Force resolving test like photo-camera but using FS7 video at 4K ?

Certainly there is a quality difference. It doesn't matter what the resolution is, there is still greater compression. You may be fine with the difference because the extra resolution can help hide the differences to the naked eye, but they're still there.I believe 72mb/s is about right, but you can look it up easily enough.

The sensor is 4096x2160. Resolving capabilities, sensitivity, etc. is still you'll have to test for.

 

[moldcad]

I admit I was kidding with this question.
And regarding your dilemmas.. I keep my kidding for myself

My Dear Clermond: I do have a sense of humor - plenty of it - but would you be so nice and try to help me out with a more constructive input? Just do it as a Christmas present for a fellow forum user Cheers

Piotr

 

[moldcad]

Here is what the Odyssey7Q+ with RAW Bundle can capture from the FS7 camera with XDCA RAW output.
4K RAW -> 4K RAW CinemaDNG 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
2K RAW -> 2K RAW CinemaDNG 24, 25, 30, 50, 60, 100, 120, 200, 240
4K RAW -> 4K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> UHD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> 2K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
2K RAW -> 2K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 100, 120, 200, 240
2K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 100, 120, 200, 240


From the above list, these are what are unique to Odyssey (note that it is the majority of modes).
4K RAW -> 4K RAW CinemaDNG 50, 60
2K RAW -> 2K RAW CinemaDNG 200, 240
4K RAW -> UHD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> 2K ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
4K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 24, 25, 30, 50, 60
2K RAW -> HD ProRes (HQ/422/LT/Proxy) 100, 120, 200, 240

While this is based on the spec lists as published on the respective manufacturers, please note two additional items:
- I did not exclude announced but incomplete record modes. The other manufacturer's CinemaDNG recording is currently a beta release only, and the 2K RAW -> 2K ProRes 200 & 240 is noted as a future release.
- Recording FSRAW in 4K 50 & 60 or 2K 200 & 240 is only ever possible on the Odyssey7Q+ because it requires two SATA bus ports. There is too much data to fit through a single SATA port. The Odyssey7Q+ offers dual SSD recording for these modes, but all other recorders have only a single SSD capacity.

Thank you so much for the write-up, Mitch

I've been one of the first CD's customers; years ago when the first plans for the Flash XDR recorder where announced by Mike Shell, I prepaid and ordered it immediately... I also have my little share of input into the nanoFlash project, when Mike discussed its planned functionalities with us future users (I got one of the first nanoFlash units ever built, and enjoyed it for quite a long time - even though its high bitrate recording revealed even more noise in the EX1 I was using it with). So my relations with Convergent Design have been long and I always appreciated you Company's now legendary support and great contact with loyal customers.

Considering the above, I would not hesitate a second an buy Odyssey+ with the RAW option, rather than any other monitor/recorder - were the Odyssey capable of HDR preview. Now: I do realize that the HDR capabilities of the other monitors - while looking great on paper - may turn out disappointing in real life, but they are so important to me I want to give them a try.

Thanks again, Mitch - and have a Merry Christmas and Prosperous New Year!

Piotr

 

[Clermond]

My Dear Clermond: I do have a sense of humor - plenty of it - but would you be so nice and try to help me out with a more constructive input? Just do it as a Christmas present for a fellow forum user Cheers

Piotr

My dear moldcad, you flood the forum with questions and never seem to find a solution. If you had to pay Mitch 10€ every time he listed the formats of the 7Q+ he'd be rich and you would be poor. The B-camera was a good example. 11 pages, >100 posts, turning arguments back and forth. No decision. You haven't even found a solution and start opening the next box of worms. One way to deal with it is take it with humor. So I was kidding. Merry Christmas.

 

[DLD]

Not exactly how it works, but you're on the right track...

My right rack went so far south, it ended up north.

But, if you have a few seconds to humor me - is it not possible to convert an 8-bit footage into a floating "fake" 10-bit? I believed I read a post of yours when you referred to something in that vein as a "9-bit". Or is it something usually done, if it's done at all, neither in camera or a recorder but in post, with plenty of processing power and time?