Buying a basic audio kit for productions.

T

Thomas Church

Active member
Hi guys, I have a few questions. I'm an audio noobie but I want to buy a basic set of tools for my production company in the near future. I read the sticky but didn't find the answers I was looking for.

I want affordable solutions but I'm willing to spend a little more if it means gear that will last me and that I can use on theatrical productions. I guess it isn't such a "basic" production kit.

So far I own a Sennheiser 416 mic, boom pole, etc, and so far I've used it plugged directly on the camera for most shoots.

I'm planning to buy a GH2 in the future and perhaps do double-system with it, but I also want something that's "future proof" enough for me to use when Scarlet hits. Something that can last me 10 years or more hopefully.

I was thinking of buying these two items:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/404262-REG/Tascam_HD_P2_HD_P2_Portable_Stereo_CF.html

and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292988-REG/Sound_Devices_MIXPRE_Mixpre_Portable_2.html

How good sound will I get with this equipment? Good enough for a feature?

I've never used timecode sync; with the Tascam would it be possible to automatically sync audio in a NLE? Is it important to have a recorder that records audio in the same framerate as the video?

Or is this Tascam good enough for video and film productions?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...100_DR_100_Professional_Portable_Digital.html

About mics, I bought the Sennheiser 416 because people told me it was excelent and was the industry standard. I mostly record dialogue in narrative productions.
complementary" mic I could use together with the 416 to get better sound?

Thanks in advance guys! I know this thread asks too much questions but I couldn't find them anywhere.
 
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Thomas,

Either Tascam will record good sound. There is no frame rate for sound. The HD-P2 can accept time code, but not generate it. So unless you have a cam that does generate TC, or accepts it from a third source, jaming both, there isn't much point. Synching audio from a recorder isn't to tough, get a clapper to start. The HD-P2 is a better recorder, but I'm not so sure at twice the price. I have a DR-100 and it is a fine little recorder.

A third option is to record to cam with a mixer (MixPre or SD302) in between. This setup means you don't need to synch in post and for dialogue, is plenty good enough as long as you are shooting with a decent video cam and not a DSLR.

If I was going to spend extra money, I would upgrade from the MixPre to the SD302. The Mixpre is great, but the 302, feeding whatever you choose, is pretty much a lifetime investment. You get three channels and more features.

If you were going for a second mic, a hypercardiod would be a good thing for interiors. Low end think Oktava Mk012. Mid range think AT-4053b. And high end....I don't have any of those...but probably Neuman.

Also, do need a lav type mic and or wireless. Chad Johnson just posted up a great lav shootout here. Search around, it is near the top of the section.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
...

If you were going for a second mic, a hypercardiod would be a good thing for interiors. Low end think Oktava Mk012. Mid range think AT-4053b. And high end....I don't have any of those...but probably Neuman.

..Grant
Click to expand...

High-end hyper and arguably the film industry standard for interior booming would be the Schoeps CMC6 / MK41. Runs right about $2K.
 
What industry standard ?
Yours , US , UK , FR, GER , China ........?
There is no any standard , there is only people who buy what they see at the neighbor House .
You can achieve the same ( we are talking dialog , not Douche Gramophone recordings :-)) using Geffell , Neumann , Sennheiser, Mbho ,and even much lower cost brands like Oktava or even Chinese capsules you get from very respectable firms as Peluso,Sontronics and many others . The most important is the room/ street acoustics , the second important thing is where your mic is , 3rd what exactly the post production ( dialog editor) knows and the last ,what mic you use :-)
Don't waste your money over one Brand name ,number of different patterns and different microphones will give you much more , when you will be rich and wouldn't know where to throw the money, you can buy Schoeps :-)

If you need Good documentary or supper low budget stuff , start with 3-4 channel mixer , zoom H-4n ( or Tascam ) ,2 dissent wireless , additional hyper so you will be able pass the first stage of your business . If you will need more and will have budget you will find a sound man anyway that usually brings his own gear which probably would be more complete to make the job done .
 
X2.. what olgak said.

people do get too caught up on what specific equipment is considered "Industry Standard"

are there some pieces of gear better than others? of course, but this does NOT mean just as good of a job cannot be done with lesser known or less expensive pieces of kit.

now here is the caveat... in order to make the lower end gear perform as good you have to invest the elbow grease as they say (practice and skill development) a relative holding up a boom pole with a Schoeps aimed behind the actor's head will suck much more than a trained professional booming a $200 Oktava.

the reality is that as the prices creep up you will be faced with the law of diminishing returns. (you're paying higher percentage of price for lower percentage in return (performance))

and I'm not saying to not strive for the best, because it is nice to have better gear, just don't get into the mentality that it cannot be accomplished with lower priced gear, there are too many people out there making great recordings with lower end gear because they chose to get educated about how a good recording is done not just what gear did it.

REMEMBER " Its the Man NOT the machine" that makes the most difference.

Good luck.
 
The tascam dr-100 and a external mic I would not advice you because of the very poor pre-amp on the dr-100

I got the mixpre -NTG-2 mic- and cheap recorder Tascam-dr-07 absolute good clean sound without noise

The mixpre is so good that you only have to need something the save files.
Sync is no problem if you work with audio waveform and a clash with your hands before you start to record
 
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BTW.. to OP.

either of the recorders will serve you well, and with the Mixpre you have a good decent recording rig that is capable or doing great sound along with your 416, like its been mentioned before that is great for outdoors. now how about a hyper for indoors? lots of great choices, obviously you heard about the Shoeps (phenomenal mic but you could outfit an entire other kit for its price) , there are plenty of options in sub-$1k range,

for right now I wouldn't worry too much about time code, as it will add considerable expense in using it properly.

All the pieces mentioned so far will equip you with the tools necessary to record good audio and should last you for a long time. as with any technical endeavor your kit will grow. as your skills and needs grow this batch of gear makes a great second kit as well.
 
olgak said:
What industry standard ?
Yours , US , UK , FR, GER , China ........?
There is no any standard , there is only people who buy what they see at the neighbor House .
...
Click to expand...

The question that had been asked was what was an example of a high-end hypercardioid. The Schoeps certainly is an example of a high-end mic and it is very commonly found in use booming on North American studio and network shoots.
 
Cane,

The issue with the DR-07 is that the input from any external source is via a 1/8 mini plug which equals crap. Not even that it is unbalanced, but that the plug itself tends to be unreliable. I would be the first to admit that feeding the DR-100 with anything Sound Designs in front of it is an improvement which I usually do. But the DR-07 has no phantom power at all, so it isn't even an option to use a phantom powered mic. The DR-100 pre-amps are clean enough for most uses and delivers reasonable quality for the $$. The bigger issue is that there isn't enough gain for most dynamic mics.

Grant
 
Ok, thanks for the replies so far guys.

My question is, on a "normal" film shoot you'd be using a shotgun Mic (like the 416) to capture dialogue.

But is it normal to use some other mic at the same time to capture ambient sound?

I think that (if I get the AF100) I might just buy the MixPre for now and record in the camera.
 
At the same time, no. Different mics, most likely. If I'm grabbing tone outdoors, I'll reach for a cardioid. For dialog outdoors, it's typically my narrow shotgun.

Indoors, typically it'll be hyper for dialog, and again cardioid for tone. For wild fx I'll usually use a medium to short shotgun to help isolate extraneous noise but still get some ambience to the fx.

The problem with capturing ambient during the shot is you'll get dialog dirtying up the ambient track. The whole idea is to give the post sound person a clean ambient track that they can lay under dialog so when they checkerboard, the room tone remains constant.

Now, this is all based on shooting "films", and not some "reality" type show. But whether it's action, drama, "documentary", fantasy, or a love story, this is the approach I take.

Thomas Church said:
Ok, thanks for the replies so far guys.

My question is, on a "normal" film shoot you'd be using a shotgun Mic (like the 416) to capture dialogue.

But is it normal to use some other mic at the same time to capture ambient sound?

I think that (if I get the AF100) I might just buy the MixPre for now and record in the camera.
Click to expand...
 
Before I test the dr-100 and the dr-07 with mixpre I had the same thought about balanced and unbalanced
And then I was curious about the line input of the dr-07 to connected on tape out with mixpre mine conclusion is there is no noticeable difference
only difference is the 200 dollar.
And the phantom power is no issue because the mixpre has phantom power....
 
Cane, at short distance, the unbalanced connection isn't important. It's the 1/8" plug connection. They wear out prematurely and since they don't lock, twisting the cable in the socket can create noise. And for a $200 difference, the improved controls, better power options, AND phantom power of the DR-100 make it worthwhile to me. Your mileage on this seems to vary. I'm not saying the DR-07 isn't a fine recorder for $100, but it does lack features for professional use.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
Cane, at short distance, the unbalanced connection isn't important. It's the 1/8" plug connection. They wear out prematurely and since they don't lock, twisting the cable in the socket can create noise. And for a $200 difference, the improved controls, better power options, AND phantom power of the DR-100 make it worthwhile to me. Your mileage on this seems to vary. I'm not saying the DR-07 isn't a fine recorder for $100, but it does lack features for professional use.

Grant
Click to expand...

thanks for your advice Grant

The best advice is the practical experience and I can't hear any difference with dr-100 or dr-07 conected on mixpre
I also plug the mixpre on mine panasonic hvx200 and can't hear no difference between the both tascam's and the panasonic.
But the 1/8' plug is not lock is a major disadvantage I have to live with it and be careful.
I'm not interested in phantom power I wil not use it because the mixpre has phanton power
And I live in Europa the price difference between the dr-100 and dr-07 is 330 dollar..

Here is a example with the mixpre and dr-07
http://vimeo.com/17415774
 
ambience sounds are mostly (always) recorderd separated....

During recording of the dialogues...it has to be as quiet as possible...so this means killing ref's, fridges, heaters, coolers, and everything else making noise.

Also hear with your mike.... Watch out for buzz sounds of light also...clocks.... music of the neighbours....

BUT !!!!!! You do can record ambience sound at the same time. I would do it for example in a place that's always buzzy (like trainstation, airport)... I would use a shotgun also then and wireless mices, recorded on different tracks.
And then put the mice for ambience far enough so it doesn't captures the dialogues (other wise you can not "play" with it after.
In situations like that, ask the actors to speak loud (without shouting) and during anouncements stop and do another take...
 
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