F55: Buy decision : AMIRA vs F55

I think Andrey was probably speaking more from a value perspective, despite its flaws the FS7 packs a lot for its price which really can't be denied. But if you really want value I'd recommend the Sony F3.

greenheron said:
So now, can someone explain to me why so many big feature films are still being shot with the Arri Alexa?
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Big feature films are made by big studios, and those big studios will probably never shoot on anything that doesn't say ARRI on the side. Less are shot on Sony, and even less on RED/Canon.

Regardless of what I think, maybe this will help explain things: http://reframe.gizmodo.com/these-are-the-cameras-this-years-oscar-nominated-films-1504990016

klk said:
All of today's cameras can look spectacular. The hardware is really, really good- the limitation is the talent behind the lens.
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I definitely agree that I'm the flaw and limit of my F55 camera. But the good news is I am getting better. :happy:
 
"FCP7"
As Cuervo says. Habit.

"Why big features are shot with the Alexa."
Also the Alexa's gamma curve is closest to film. Art Adams made a good point in one of his articles- Arri was the industry standard film scanner/ laser printer in the DI suite for years. They KNOW what film looks like in the digital realm, and when they released the Alexa they tuned it to respond like film.

Because Arri made film cameras for what, almost 100 years, they KNOW about preferred ergonomics with the film community. Sony, Ikegami, Panasonic- they made broadcast ENG/EFP cameras. They know what the ENG/EFP community likes. Red knows about, well, Red. After the D20/D21 Arri continued that design philosophy, and feature DP's were very comfortable with it.

Arri did not release the camera before it was ready. Again, I suspect building on the D20/21 knowledge base Arri did their homework properly. Not like Red. Not like Sony (remember the F65 release???) not like Canon or Blackmagic. Their hardware WORKS. The workflow WORKED with the current post community. Their digital image responds to light similar to film. The ergonomics make sense to people who have shot on 35mm film cameras. Also if you have shot film, you likely had a negative reaction to 4K. Besides the organic structure of film grain, you have gate weave, both in camera and in projection. With film you have a very imperfect image. But 35mm was the established gold standard in aesthetics.

Big features are generally shot by established dp's who have been around for a long time- the old guard- with the old aesthetic. Now the established aesthetic is a moving target- it will change over time. For example, I know directors who love the look of the Ikonoscope. Some love the Digital Bolex. Some directors LOVE whatever aesthetic is currently UNLOVED-- in principle I suspect. What the professional feature film community considers good and desirable will change over time.

4K has been pushed by TV manufacturers- they have to sell more stuff, and higher resolution, a number, is something easy to sell. More is better. The new broadcast reality- Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime- they need to differentiate from traditional broadcast and cable and they are pushing 4K from acquisition through distribution.

The Panasonic guy told me the projection team was a huge proponent for pushing the 4K Varicam- for live large screen projection venues. That does make a lot of sense.

I will end on this- since the 1920's or so dp's started using gauze, Vaseline, and nets on lenses because the current crop of 1920's glass was TOO SHARP for the actress's faces. Resolution was the enemy for perpetuating the image of the Stars. High resolution can be interpreted as hyper realism. (like live sporting events) They say Walking Dead went with super16 initially because it was easiest on the makeup. Lower resolution, like the Alexa's output compared to other cameras, may help transport the audience to a different place- a different time. In other words, precisely what a feature film tries to do with an audience.
 
I used to own an F55 the Fs7 give me the same IQ for $22,000 Less + Monitor EVF + Joistic Handgrip

I'm not missing the 5% extra the F55 have to offer (I pretty sure other people have a different opinion) for some of the work I do the Fs7 fit perfect but if money is not an issue and you are looking for the best All around camera I think the Epic Dragon is the one
why? :
-6K,
-Redcode (best file format ever)
-Beutifull Highlight rolloff,
-Amazing DR,
-Modular Design,
-perfect Colors
-Did Imentioned Redcode?

Arri's are Tanks Rental Houses Love them , the brand is realliable and solid . But in term of feactures and value for money I don't think they are a smart buy now. From my experience the image you get from the alexa you can get the same if not better from an Epic Dragon. Alexa been around for a while Epics Dragons really start shipping About 7 months ago to the mases.



Viddovation said:
I think by claiming that the FS7 is better than the F55 with zero explanation you've raised some eyebrows around here. By all means, if a $8,000 camera is better than a $30k+ camera, I think that's something we'd all like to know more about, but on the face it sounds like a very subjective opinion rather than an objective assessment.
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AndreyBlanco said:
From my experience the image you get from the alexa you can get the same if not better from an Epic Dragon.
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They are close, but Alexa still has more dynamic range in highlights, a slightly smoother highlight roll-off still, less noise in shadows, more versatility in ISO choice (less noise than Dragon at equivalent ISO's).

The price difference is big enough for that to be okay and say the Dragon is decent value, but to say it is its equal in the technical aspects of image quality can be shown to be false. Aesthetic choice is another matter entirely.

People say the industry just stick to Arri like glue because it's what they know, but if that is the case, why weren't their digital cameras before Alexa embraced? There is no great conspiracy. People like the look of the Alexa image. Forget resolution as well..! Look at the film In Time, one of the first shot by Alexa, and watch it alongside a Fincher film shot in 5k on Red. You would say they both look good, and you would probably not realise that In Time was actually shot in 1080p ProRes!! Because a good 1080 image is very very good. Not every 1080p is made equal..
 
jcarrig said:
People say the industry just stick to Arri like glue because it's what they know, but if that is the case, why weren't their digital cameras before Alexa embraced? There is no great conspiracy. People like the look of the Alexa image.
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If that were true people would be shooting on Canon DSLRs even now even though their sensors are completely outdated. Wait that is happening. Okay, I couldn't afford a Arri or a RED, but if someone dropped either one at my door I wouldn't complain.
 
I would certainly expect that a camera that had the price of an Arri be noticeably better than a prosumer cam. As for Red, well, it has its own issues that, despite the attractive price, make it a non-starter, AFAIK.
 
jcarrig said:
They are close, but Alexa still has more dynamic range in highlights, a slightly smoother highlight roll-off still, less noise in shadows, more versatility in ISO choice (less noise than Dragon at equivalent ISO's).
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I think this is arguable, an epic dragon with the Latest Firmware and the new OLPF is the same if not better than Alexa.
Using Redcode make a big differnt for low budget filming, Color Grading is extremely easy, manipulate the footage and making look whatever you wanted to look and all this is compress format. WB Manipulation is more important for me than 6K
 
starcentral said:
What about Cion? That camera ever cross anyone's mind in the F55/Amira arena?
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Not mine, because:

1-No real EVF. Personally can't stand any of the Zacuto/Alphatron/etc options out there, short of the Astro 3512

2-Latitude.

3-base ISO. It's kinda a 320 camera.

Great option if you don't want to cross the $16K mark, but it's not really in the same class as 55 or Amira, I don't think?
 
starcentral said:
Nate how is that Amira of yours? Do you tinker with Impluz or is there no need, or less need than there is with Sony?
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Impulse seems to work much better with F55 footage.

My theory as of now is that Arri bakes a lot more of the "film" color response into the LogC. And that famous Arri highlight rolloff is baked in too. As opposed to LC709 (the LUT itself) on the Sonys is doing work on gamma, color (a lot of tweaks in that alone), highlight rolloff, etc. I also suspect this is why if you grade both cameras by hand without a LUT, the Arri is probably going to look much more "filmic".

So you take some of those heavy tweaks in the Impulz LUTs and try to normalize it against the base Arri color science...it just often seems too heavy handed. Not always. Just some of the time.

Overall, it seems you can get a wider range of looks with the 55 and Impulz, which is cool. Sony just seems to be a more neutral starting point.
 
Cristian Mihai said:
Hello guys.
First , you need you need to know that i have no experience in the cameras. As a photograher i am gonna start a small production business with talented people very soon. Beeing a lot of money involved please help me decide.

AMIRA or F55 ?
We want a versatile camera, good, portable , cheap ( sort of ) you know....what we all want :-) .
We want to be able to shoot music clips, advertising from medium to high end local market, food and beverage table shoots.
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Sounds as if you are looking to be a "high end" production company and in light of that I'm thinking you go with the Arri. In large part because the Arri name says "high end" more than does the Sony F55. Some might not like that, but it is my experience. Feature films are shot on Arris. They are rarely shot on F55's. As shallow as it may be, Arri carries a panache with it not unlike that of Mercedes and Porsche. Nissan Skyline GTR is a helluva car but it is still a Nissan. For a production company doing ad work, company image DOES matter more than it does for a one-man owner operator. Particularly if you are doing studio work where a bunch of ad agency folks will be sitting about. The kind of people who will say "yeah, and they have an Arri so you know they are really good!".

I think it unlikely that you will ever regret it if you go with the Amira. In fact, it sounds as if you should be aiming at the Alexa and not the Amira.

Now, the above wholly ignores cost factor. The Amira fully spec'd is going to run you around $52k.

As far as rolling shutter vs global, keep in mind that many feature films, music videos, and commercials are shot with a rolling shutter. It just isn't a deal breaker or even something that is of great consequence in the product.

I own a Sony Fs7, btw. So don't anyone get the impression that I am some snobby ARRI owner who is down on Sony.
 
I hate to be the stick in the mud, but I have never been a fan of you buy it and they will come.

You have no experience, your starting a production company, spending a lot of money, and you are asking people on the Internet which camera you should purchase.

The key here is knowing your client base, and putting a business plan together.

Buying expensive gear without the above, and you are throwing your money away.

All the best!

Dave
 
David W. Jones said:
I hate to be the stick in the mud, but I have never been a fan of you buy it and they will come.

You have no experience, your starting a production company, spending a lot of money, and you are asking people on the Internet which camera you should purchase.

The key here is knowing your client base, and putting a business plan together.

Buying expensive gear without the above, and you are throwing your money away.

All the best!

Dave
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JPNola and David Jones....
RIGHT ON!
Well said.
 
Thanks for advices guys.

@cuervo : Yes, your points are valid BUT :
1. i have another profitable business that allows me to buy from the profit the gear (actually i invest more in lenses, lights and grip )
2. I have my own way of doing things : first get the gear, get the people build portofolio on my own money and time and when i feel ready for the market i go for it prepared. Owning my own gear gives me the privilege to shoot whenever i want. The money spend on gear if not spend would go on taxes for profit so for me is win situation.
3. I have a thing for atracting clients and sell them my product. I dont know if it;s native but i feel trained on this.

Meanwhile got an F3 modified by Reality/ Element Technica with an RGB 444 update on the way, Gemini 444 recorder, batteries and i really like the camera. As for my original post i am very drawn by the Alexa Mini and will wait to see how it develops. NAB is also close and will see other new stuff.
 
David W. Jones said:
I hate to be the stick in the mud, but I have never been a fan of you buy it and they will come.

You have no experience, your starting a production company, spending a lot of money, and you are asking people on the Internet which camera you should purchase.

The key here is knowing your client base, and putting a business plan together.

Buying expensive gear without the above, and you are throwing your money away.

All the best!

Dave
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Very well said. Further, know thyself comes to mind.
The reasons for getting an Amira or a F55 are very different.
This suggests to me the need to get a little more knowledge on the kind of work you want to produce going forward.
The Amira is a smaller sensor built for the ENG crowd. The F55 is more geared to advertising and fiction.
One stays on the shoulder more often the not, the other is mostly shot on sticks from what I have seen.
They take a completely different range and style of lens as well.
Which lenses do you own? Which lenses do you plan to own?

I could go on, there are so many variables. But self knowledge is key here.
Don't spend a dime until you know more where your passion is.
 
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