But this actually is the beginning of the end, right?

[dalethompson]

But for someone who wants to shoot inconspicuously, having a DSLR will be invaluable. And they'll be excellent for b-cams, crash cams, weird-angle cams, etc.

Well said Barry, I agree with you on this.

I was at a documentary clinic last night and I got a chance to pitch my newest proposal in front of a few producers. I mentioned I was going to shoot this doc with my HVX200 (now considered an idie standard in most cases) and my new Canon T2i. When I finished my pitch, the producers cared less what I shot my doc on and only focused on my actual plan. I wasn't shocked, I guess I thought I'd get more of a reaction from the panel in terms of shooting part of it on a DSLR because of the discussion (like this thread) it creates.

I guess my point is, a DSLR is great for certain things, just like another camera that shoots HD. However, I could've given my pitch saying I had three Red cameras ready to shoot but unless they liked my idea, I'm going nowhere fast with it.

I've said this before in other threads but my T2i is just another tool for me. I love what it can do but it's not the holy grail of film... you still have to shoot something of substance in front of it.

 

[Gary Huff]

I mentioned I was going to shoot this doc with my HVX200 (now considered an idie standard in most cases) and my new Canon T2i.

I own the 170 and a T2i...I think you'll be able to produce some excellent footage with that combination.

Frankly, I think people should be less concerned about the camera than they should be on the support system they build around it. With the T2i, I can play with shooting on DSLR and build a nice collections of primes.

 

[dalethompson]

I do love both together, it gives me a lot more flexibility for sure. Like Barry mentioned, I use it for a B camera and in spaces where the HXV200 may produce too tight of a shot. I love the time lapse option on it too, I just wish it shot for more than 12 mins at a time in 1080.

I agree as well, the system you build around it is the key. I need more prime lenses but I've been cut off for now by my wife in buying anything else for now.

I don't think the producers I met were either technically inclined or just didn't concern themselves with it. I understand though in their logic, equipment is nice but they want results and good ones at that. I have some of the tools to produce some good results but they want to see exactly what I will produce, that's where the idea either flies or gets shelved.

 

[Barry_Green]

Okay, on the line-skipping... here's the real point I guess I'm coming to: if the thing is alias-free and moire-free, if it delivers 1080p as sharp as an EX1 and shallow DOF like a 7D and has no downside...

WHO CARES IF IT USES LINE SKIPPING TO GET THERE????

It seems like the detractors are focusing on line-skipping even though we don't know whether this particular product uses that or not.

But do you really care how it accomplishes it, as long as the final result is unimpeachable?

So, I repeat, to those who are holding out line-skipping as some big negative: if one camera produces a rock-solid 1080p with no aliasing, no moire, and doesn't use line skipping, and the other camera produces rock-solid 1080p with no aliasing, no moire, and does use line-skipping...

Do you really care?

And if so, WHY?

I've been pointing out the flaws int he footage and the ways the cameras can fail, because those WILL impact you and your work. But if the footage doesn't have flaws, then where, exactly, is the complaint?

 

[Gary Huff]

Barry, perhaps you should find the nearest wall and bang your head against it repeatedly.

Will it help people learn? I dunno, but it's crazy enough that it might just work! :laugh:

 

[Lenilenapi]

Apparently Sony just announced they will have their 35mm entry in before NAB next year. Maybe we'll even have a Scarlet and a Canon by then. In 2 years people will look back at the "just barely HD" quality of the 5D's and scoff - won't be acceptable anymore for video but still a hell of a still camera.

I'm curious about the lens issues. The Canon lenses or any modern DSLR lenses without iris rings might be useless on anything but a Canon camera or a camera they were designed to work with. So older 35mm lenses will again have some special value.

 

[jmmusic]

the broadcast/ENG market, which is the "big prize" in the video production industry

Point taken. Thank you, Barry. I figured as much.

You can say "it's not what I want" or "I can't afford it and I don't know anyone else who can"

Not directed at me, but that wasn't my point regarding the pricing. I just didn't realize it was the in the field, news gathering camera operator from the local station clamoring for a 4/3 sensor-sized camera... a "video cam" version of the GH1. The concept seems born right here out of the lower-rung, indie filmmaker GH1 community.

now, people actually have the nerve to say "dammit! its waay overpriced compared to my $700 dslr!"

spoiled brats.

Wow. Less coffee, maybe?

Anyone who complains about the price has been spoiled by t2i and Flip cameras.

Umm, er, or is not complaining, but just had questions as to who this product is aimed at. Professional division = professionals = I make money doing this so 6k is nothing.

Got it.


In reality, though, there are plenty of hobbyists or semi-pros that can afford a 6k bit of kit, so Panny will do great with that niche, too. I'd wager that there are plenty of "professionals" on this forum that, in actuality, are hobbyists or semi-pros at best, but they'll still persuade the wife that this camera is really what they need to "get those gigs" and "take it to the next level!"

Same as always. YMMV.

 

[NextWaveG]

I think some people are forgetting what this camera is. Look in the NAB section and people are jumping up and down about it. In the DSLR section, people think it's overpriced.

This is pretty much the successor to the HVX200. But the next leap isn't 24p, or HD, but a larger cinema-style sensor.

This is NOT just a DSLR rehoused in a camcorder body with a Zoom H4n duct-taped to the inside.

 

[Kholi]

No, not anytime soon. I'm going to start with some music videos and work on my craft and also put together some reels for some actors. If that goes well ...well see. It's steep mountain to climb.

Okay, because I'm not keen on educating my competition. Not anymore.

Would be interesting to get your thoughts on what ASC Shane Hurlbut thinks of the 5DII. He says it looks spectacular projected but maybe he's just sloppy or a secretly paid shill by Canon.

What does Shane Hurlbut using a 5D Mkii and reporting that it looks spectacular do for anyone on these boards but build confidence in a shoddy digital image and not actual skill or talent?

 

[FixMix]

Wow -- a proclamation of fact, based on comparing one unreleased camera against another unreleased camera...

Seems a bit premature to make such proclamations, doesn't it?

Well, I have seen testfootage from the Scarlet when it was still in development. I know that it will have 3k resolution and record RAW images with a higher datarate than Panasonics "(maximum 24Mbps)" That just showes my opinion is not as unfunded as you make it sound.

 

[FixMix]

I would buy the Scarlet might have more functuality but that's because I don't know what that is and you seem to. However, I would wager that the Panasonic will have greater functionality.

Are things fun in your realieality?

You're talking about a camera that has been nothing but spec sheets, mockups, and renders, from a company that has released one camera, and regularly pushes back already vague dates. This spec sheet has been constantly changing for years now.

On the other hand, Panasonic is an established company that has released dozens if not hundreds of cameras in its history, and also typically meets its production schedule.

A skeptic is a person who builds an alarm system into a castle in the air.


Yes the new RED cams have been delayed. Still they managed with the RED ONE to do something which none of the big companies has done till now.
The Epic is in a testing stage and just because Red talks about their development process doesn't mean that they keep dates less precisely than the other companies. The other companies just announce it later. After you might have bought another camera from them.

P.S.: I meant functionality. English is not my native language.

 

[NextWaveG]

For the record:

I asked Joseph Hutson to ask the Panasonic booth if the AF100 has line skipping or rolling shutter and this was his reply:

Haha. Jan was not happy with the question, she answered "This is not a DSLR...it is a video camera". Answer is "no".

 

[yoclay]

If anyone seriously thinks Canon has not prepared a response to this new Panasonic, I think they are really underestimating the industry as a whole. The reason we haven't seen it yet in my opinion is probably more driven by marketing forces than other considerations. Canon has had to change factories in order to ramp up production. They estimate selling 4 million DSLR's next year alone. I would be very surprised if the next generation of cameras does not address the artifact issues we are currently seeing.
At the end of the day the new Panasonic will be the flavor of the moment, but for how long?

 

[Barry_Green]

If history is any judge... quite a while. Canon historically is last to the table with their entry. The XL1 (first DV camera from them) trailed the Sony VX1000 by, what, 18 months? They just now, this month, finally produced a tapeless pro camera, over four years after Panasonic introduced pro tapeless recording. If anyone wants to take bets, I'll bet a hundred bucks that you won't see a comparable unit from Canon for at least 18 months. No way will they have a large sensor, interchangeable-lens, professional video camera before October 2011. A hundred bucks says so.

 

[Thomas Lew]

Not to do that thing where you say something unrelated and troll the topic off course... BUT.. something comes to mind:

You know that oh so classic saying "It's not the camera that matters, it's the filmmaker?" (or however you want to phrase it..)

I guess reading this entire thread proves to me that with technology being so wildly advanced compared to cameras of yesterday.. I guess the camera that it's shot on does kind of have quite a significance

:bath:

 

[PastePotPete]

I don't see what this Panasonic camera has to do with the viability of DSLR filmmaking... the whole appeal of the DSLR cameras is the image quality in relation to the price...the picture quality is terrific but only with the caveat "for the price." Increase the price and it loses most of the appeal.

So this Panasonic will likely have much better image quality(or at least fewer problems) but at $6k. To people that can afford that, it's great. For everyone else, it doesn't change a thing.

 

[Alpha Beta Omega]

I agree the appeal is image quality vs price with the DLSR thing. Question is where the price becomes to high? A 5D body is not a cheap DSLR and a 1D IV is in the same ballpark as the AG-AF100.

 

[morgan_moore]

I don't see what this Panasonic camera has to do with the viability of DSLR filmmaking... the whole appeal of the DSLR cameras is the image quality in relation to the price...the picture quality is terrific but only with the caveat "for the price." Increase the price and it loses most of the appeal.

So this Panasonic will likely have much better image quality(or at least fewer problems) but at $6k. To people that can afford that, it's great. For everyone else, it doesn't change a thing.

I think the Panny is interesting and does change things - compare it to a Sony EX1

chip is 4X larger and lenses are removable

Where else (excluding DSLR) do you get that

The EX3 they charge you half again for the privilage of taking the lens off

In terms of that $6k tag, once you pimp up a DSLR, buy a sound recorder etc $6k is not that much more IMO - throw in the reduced hassle of multiple battery systems etc of a DSLR system and the price jump is very justifiable - my almost functioning DSLR will have cost at least $6k

At least when that DSLR fails or a better one comes out most of that $6k stays with me

S

 

[Noel Evans]

My 7D is already up for sale.

How much you want for that Barry? I want one as a B cam (serious question btw)

This new Panasonic cam is going to sell so well, Id say arguably more than the HVX or DVX. Its a really well placed set up for price and function.

Im still holding out for Sca....

 

[Noel Evans]

NI guess the camera that it's shot on does kind of have quite a significance

:bath:

Dont agree. People will always want the new system, camera, car etc.

The last DVXfest third place winner and first place for the Industry Jurors was xepoj, shot on a HV30.