Bob's Notes On the Sony EX-1 From DV Expo

[walnutcrunch]

You know, below 50-60 inches, there is probably close to zero chance someone can tell the difference between a 720p signal and a 1080p signal. I think it is more marketing that will make people believe 1080p is the FULL HD experience they can't possibly miss out on.

 

[moldcad]

You know, below 50-60 inches, there is probably close to zero chance someone can tell the difference between a 720p signal and a 1080p signal. I think it is more marketing that will make people believe 1080p is the FULL HD experience they can't possibly miss out on.

It all depends on the actual viewing distance - even with 50", to see the difference between full HD and 720p, it cannot exceed 2-3 meters! For smaller displays, it gets even shorter...

 

[nsoltz]

I will be getting an EX-1 from Sony to field test for an article and should know shortly when I'll get my camera.

I start my test with an inherent prejudice against any long-GOP format, but I also must maintain as much journalistic objectivity as humanly possible. Head to head comparisons of specific features of different products can be useful but again, they don't tell the whole story. And I certainly do not like to like to envision the battle of the Japanese cameras as the battles of Japanese monster films, with Godzilla out to kill his rival. I just don't like the term "x-y-z Killer."

Do I love my HVX for what it does? Yes. Will I buy an EX? Very possibly.

But again, different buyers will need different products. I am anxious to test EX-1 in green screen situation. I'm willing to bet here that with the 4:2:2 color space of the HVX, I can pull a much cleaner key.

I had some hands on time with the EX1 at DV Expo. I found it (as did my colleague DV writer Adam Wilt) a very uncomfortable camera to hold. I loved the focus, zoom and aperture rings. There were some great bells and whistles on the super-sharp but way too small LCD screen.

My field test should hopefully speak volumes. Since my articles are lilmited to 1200 words or so, I'll be blogging test progress and will post a URL when I get started.

Ned Soltz

 

[kplo]

Ned,
I, too, played with the camera at DV Expo, and can second your observations regarding it's ergonomics.
The real problem in usabilty for me is the extremely poor peaking function.
No matter what color peakinf display you choose, the level is just way too low and really only works if focused on a high contrast object (like the printed labels in the display at the booth). It's virtually useless on faces, say in a run & gun situation.
Worse, when you enable focus assist to magnify the viewfinder image, peaking is disabled entirely...just when you need it most! What were they thinking?
When another visitor and I mentioned this to the Sony engineer, even he couldn't get it any better by adjusting the menu functions. Hopefully, this can be fixed with a firmware upgrade before negative reactions to this flaw become widespread.
Unfortunately, no matter how nice the picture may be, not being able to reliably obtain sharp focus, is a deal breaker for me.
Ken
the Screen Skins guy

 

[Stevet]

I start my test with an inherent prejudice against any long-GOP format, but I also must maintain as much journalistic objectivity as humanly possible.

Hmmm.... Somehow this info just rendered any possibility of a fair review. That's for sure.
BTW, I'd say everyone is not a real fan with some compression formats, unfortunately, we just have to live wth them, or find other solutions.

Which brings up...
Also, keep in mind the upcoming 4:2:2 portable capture solutions such as Cineforms, and convergent design.

This will be one real large benefit for the EX1, since it does offer SDI.
The main concern for users that buy into the additional recorders will be if you can live with the rolling shutter.
Apparently , RED users are willing to take this chance.

Having owned many other 1/3" cameras, I believe a lot of these reviews will weigh the EX1 pros and cons:
PROS:

* Excellent sensitivity due to 1/2" sensors
The ability of tighter DOF due to 1/2" sensors (Of course, NO where near 35mm adatpers)
* Pro Fujinon lens that offers full manual control
* Native 1080P resolution (with the ability to render near 1000 lines of horizontal resolution.)
* SDI out 4:2:2
* High rez LCD (very sharp)
* AF Peaking function (Works VERY well)
* Low CA

CONS:
* Buttons are a tad small
* Can be akward to hold
* Long GOP 4:2:0 internal codec
* CMOS with Rolling shutter design.



I believe most know this information rigt now, it's just a matter of what you are willing to live with.
If you do not like the rolling shutter concept, you may not want to consider the EX1.
On the other hand, if you want a camera that perform extremely well with low noise with excellent detail (1080), the EX1 should at least be given a try.

 

[J.R. Hudson]

Blah blah blah (Not you Steve)

Event coverage notwithstanding; weddings, corporate, et al, and purely from this filmmakers perspective:

It is going to come down to one thing; the image.

Not ergonomics, not buttons, not low light sensitivity and latitude information or resolution

It'll come down to the magic Mojo; the inherent mystery gamma and 24 cadence.

The XL2 didn't have it, the JVC didn't have it and I wonder if the Sony will.


The DVX and HVX does have it and neither of them are perfect cameras in regards to those tangibles.

 

[Barry_Green]

Hmmm.... Somehow this info just rendered any possibility of a fair review. That's for sure.

Actually, this info rendered a very valuable piece of information that someone should know before going into Ned's review. If he doesn't like long-GOP, he should say so up front. I hate HDV, and I try to say so up front. People should know those things when they go into a review.

I believe most know this information rigt now, it's just a matter of what you are willing to live with.

"most" meaning -- most regular visitors to the forums in the last couple of months? Yes, probably. Most customers? Not by a million miles. The percentage of buyers who regularly visit forums? Probably very small. People will google for a review, but trawling through all the threads? I think the number of people who have any idea what a "rolling shutter" even is, is extremely small.

If you do not like the rolling shutter concept, you may not want to consider the EX1.
On the other hand, if you want a camera that perform extremely well with low noise with excellent detail (1080), the EX1 should at least be given a try.

Exactly! That's exactly the kind of thing that people should be being told. What the product does, and what it doesn't do. What it excels at, and what it doesn't quite pull off. Let the individual users decide the relative merit of each element.

 

[nsoltz]

Exactly! I do intend to say upfront that I prefer I frame compression to long GOP's. Then, having said that, I am able to let my readers know that I might be looking for very specific pieces of the pie when reviewing the camera. I could very well find that for certain shooting situations, it matters little. I could find that in action settings, my inherent prejudice is either substantiated or refuted. No reviewer should either be a partisan cheering squad (that was my objection to the post-IBC review of the product) or one in which the reviewer has no experience with similar products.

Ned

 

[dvInsight]

I can't wait for Ned's review. I want to read something from someone who is "sold" on the Panasonic DVCPro Codec.

Heck, get Barry, Jarrod, Evin and Noah in a room with the EX-1 and let them do their worst to the little guy. If they can come away impressed, then I am sold.

From what little footage that I have seen from it (Philip Blooms stuff), I am impressed.

I already know that the buttons are too small and awkwardly placed. I can live with that, just like I live with my HVX's lousy LCD, I bought a Marshal!

So Ned, bring on the review!

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Stevet]

It'll come down to the magic Mojo; the inherent mystery gamma and 24 cadence.

Well put !
There's is something magical when you see it, but sometimes it's hard to label.

 

[Stevet]

Actually, this info rendered a very valuable piece of information that someone should know before going into Ned's review.

True, but I would not announce it before the review. There will be many that may not of seen this message, but will have seen just the review.

Also Again, some things are a given, such as compression formats. We all hate them, but we know we're forced into using some variation of it, even DVCPRO100.

 

[Stevet]

I can't wait for Ned's review. I want to read something from someone who is "sold" on the Panasonic DVCPro Codec.

Heck, get Barry, Jarrod, Evin and Noah in a room with the EX-1 and let them do their worst to the little guy. If they can come away impressed, then I am sold.

From what little footage that I have seen from it (Philip Blooms stuff), I am impressed.

I already know that the buttons are too small and awkwardly placed. I can live with that, just like I live with my HVX's lousy LCD, I bought a Marshal!

So Ned, bring on the review!

Thanks,
Rob

LOL....
That was a touge-in-cheek remark right ?
Actually, I would believe they'd give a fair review.

 

[Oynk]

I would love to see a test where they actually show the compression 'failing' if that is indeed what it does.

It is one thing when someone says they don't like something in theory, but I always hope the experts can push the cameras to the failing point to show the tangible visual consequences, not just preference based on theory. It really helps user make more informed decisions.

When Barry did the A1, HVX comparison there were tons of 'A vs B' shots. That helps. Barry, you should do a "Why I hate HDV Shootout" with clips and grabs that show everyone why. When I hear people say they 'hate HDV' it's like hearing someone say they 'hate Macs' or 'hate Windows'. I am always interested in 'why?', specifically. Because we are talking about cameras here, we have the added benefit of being able to show what we are talking about.

I have seen side by side examples of differences in color space, resolution, lens adapters, but not compression.

When HDV came out, I read how horrible the GOP compression was. I was absolutely sure I would never buy any camera that used it. When it came time to buy, I could not find any 'smoking gun' footage of of GOP compression falling apart where another compression (in a camera at a similar price point) breezed through. If there is footage out there, I would still genuinely love to see it. I am not attached to any brand (even the one I own), I would just like to feel informed on this issue.

I did however see an example of rolling shutter failing on a HV20 (posted by Barry I think) and I found this test where the Sony V1U HDV compression fell apart and the A1 held up better in a similar circumstance. Those things are just fun to look at!

With so many reviews coming out about the EX there is another opportunity to revisit this issue. If people start saying they don't like the EX based on GOP, I just hope they show why.

 

[BobDiaz]

To: Ned Soltz

To: Ned Soltz

I will be getting an EX-1 from Sony to field test for an article and should know shortly when I'll get my camera.

I start my test with an inherent prejudice against any long-GOP format, but I also must maintain as much journalistic objectivity as humanly possible. Head to head comparisons of specific features of different products can be useful but again, they don't tell the whole story. And I certainly do not like to like to envision the battle of the Japanese cameras as the battles of Japanese monster films, with Godzilla out to kill his rival. I just don't like the term "x-y-z Killer."

Do I love my HVX for what it does? Yes. Will I buy an EX? Very possibly.

But again, different buyers will need different products. I am anxious to test EX-1 in green screen situation. I'm willing to bet here that with the 4:2:2 color space of the HVX, I can pull a much cleaner key.

I had some hands on time with the EX1 at DV Expo. I found it (as did my colleague DV writer Adam Wilt) a very uncomfortable camera to hold. I loved the focus, zoom and aperture rings. There were some great bells and whistles on the super-sharp but way too small LCD screen.

My field test should hopefully speak volumes. Since my articles are lilmited to 1200 words or so, I'll be blogging test progress and will post a URL when I get started.

Ned Soltz

Ned,

I can't wait to see your review. The point at which the video starts to show micro blocks is going to vary depending on the resolution and frame rate. That would be 6 different modes at 35Mb/s: 1080@ 60i, 30p, & 24p and 720@ 60p, 30p, & 24p. Assume you try different tests like; slow pan, medium pan, fast pan, and violent shaking. That would come to 6 x 4 = 24 tests! I know that's a lot of tests, but it would give us some insight about how far one can push the camera.

I also had some hands on time with the camera at DV Expo and found that my left hand didn't have a good resting place. The right hand was OK, but I felt the need to an extra bracket for the left hand. Maybe some sort of screw in mount would solve that...

It's always a laugh when someone says, "<insert name of camera> is the better camera!", because depending on what one choses as the parameters, you can always pick several things where one camera does something better than another. I wish they'd say, "For my needs/usage, because of <item>, <item>, ... , <insert name of camera> is the better camera!"

I guess that we'll be hearing another endless MAC vs. PC debate with the HVX-200 vs. EX-1.

Bob Diaz

 

[Barry_Green]

I would love to see a test where they actually show the compression 'failing' if that is indeed what it does.

Agreed. You should know the limits of a unit so you don't get past what it's capable of.

It is one thing when someone says they don't like something in theory, but I always hope the experts can push the cameras to the failing point to show the tangible visual consequences, not just preference based on theory. It really helps user make more informed decisions.

Exactly my perspective. Just because something can be made to fail doesn't make it "bad" but it does let us know what the limits are.

What makes something "bad" is when people just mindlessly say "oh, I heard that's not a problem so just shoot and you'll be fine" when, in fact, they won't be. That does a huge disservice to the user. What they should be given is factual information showing exactly what can happen, and under what kind of circumstances.

Barry, you should do a "Why I hate HDV Shootout" with clips and grabs that show everyone why.

I probably should. I sort of did that with the HD100 and FX1 when I showed how they fell apart in my Las Vegas Strip comparison, but a comprehensive article that outlines exactly what does and doesn't cause the problems would be a good thing.

I just grit my teeth when I hear people say "you can't pan with HDV" because that's not what does it at all. (and yes, sometimes pans fall apart too, but it depends on what you're panning past!)

When HDV came out, I read how horrible the GOP compression was. I was absolutely sure I would never buy any camera that used it. When it came time to buy, I could not find any 'smoking gun' footage of of GOP compression falling apart where another compression (in a camera at a similar price point) breezed through. If there is footage out there, I would still genuinely love to see it.

Look for the "Sirens" footage from the HVX/FX1/Z1, that's the worst I've seen HDV compression fail on.

If people start saying they don't like the EX based on GOP, I just hope they show why.

Fair point. I'll do up such an article, hopefully I can get ahold of an EX1 to demonstrate how it performs as well.

(and, to be fair, it's not long-GOP that's the problem: it's low-bandwidth long-GOP. Long-GOP could be incredible if they'd just allocate enough bandwidth to it. 19 megabits is woefully inadequate, 25 megabits is tragically inadequate, and 35 megabits is inadequate. It'll be interesting to try Sony's upcoming 50-megabit version to see if it finally crosses the threshold to adequacy!) :thumbsup:

 

[Oynk]

Look for the "Sirens" footage from the HVX/FX1/Z1, that's the worst I've seen HDV compression fail on.

You know, I am beginning to wonder if it was Sony's early implementation of HDV earned it a particularly bad reputation. I know that HDV has its limitations but Canon seemed to refine it just a bit more, as shown in the NCJE's examples I linked to above.

I look forward to your tests on the EX.

 

[Stevet]

Well, I think you may be in for a surprise with the 35mb XDCAM codec.
I've been hard panning and blowing the stuff up 400% just for this test.

Also, one thing for sure, the 720 24P 35mb stuff looks VERY good. I see absolutely no macro blocking. Believe me, I agree with all here regarding HDV1 and HDV2. I've seen what it does myself under fast motion where threre's a lot of detail, grass,water,etc.., it's not pretty.

I was very happy to see this is not an issue with the 35 XDCAM, especially at 720.
Does the XDCAM 25mb stuff have an issue, I don't know. I don't plan on using it. I will check it out for giggles and .....
It may have issues.

 

[BobDiaz]

Notes From The LAFCPUG Meeting

Notes From The LAFCPUG Meeting

Notes From The LAFCPUG Meeting

Last night I went to the LAFCPUG (Los Angeles Final Cut Pro User Group) meeting, where one of the presentations was the Sony EX-1. At the meeting were representations from Promax, Sony, as well as Cameraman Doug Jensen of Vortex Media who has worked with the camera quite a bit. I'm guessing that he helped do real world testing for Sony, but I'm not 100% sure.

http://lafcpug.org/
http://www.lafcpug.org/user_schedule.html

I'll summarize the key things I remember from the meeting:

The camera is going to have a firmware upgrade when the 32GB memory cards come out. The upgrade will enable the camera to support the 32GB cards. There is a very likely chance that new features will be added, like buffering the video. That is, the camera records the video while in standby to RAM. Once you press the record button, several seconds of video that were buffered BEFORE you pressed the record button will also be saved to the card. This might be anywhere from 3 to 12 seconds.


Some of the key things that Doug Jensen liked about the camera:

The lens is more like the 3/4" camera lenses with a real focus scale, a real zoom ring, and a seamless aperture ring (that does NOT have STEPS).

The image sensors are 1/2", unlike the other under $10,000 cameras that use 1/3" and 1/4" sensors.

The image sensor is a true 1920x1080 progressive.

The camera can record a true 1920x1080 without sub-sampling.

The delete last shot is a VERY handy feature. If you know that the last shot is worthless, you can just delete it right away and free up the memory space on the card. This is better than keeping it and having to sort through all the shots at the edit bay to get rid of all the junk.

The time lapse recording and slow shutter makes for a better looking time lapse video.

Over crank and under crank; plus a wide range of resolutions and frame rates.

External 12 volt input for adding an external battery pack.

When questioned about the Long GOP MPEG and possible micro blocking, Doug said that he never noticed a problem with it.

When working with the SxS cards, you can copy the clips subdirectory to another storage system as a backup and later copy the files back to the card. Every clip has its own subdirectory. It's best to copy the WHOLE subdirectory of the clip, because this is where all the key information on the clip is stored in several files.

We were also shown how to import the clips into Final Cut Pro. The software to do this is easy to work with. One interesting feature is that you can make a sub-clip from any clip. Thus, if you intend to use only part of a clip, you can import only just that part.

Doug is currently producing a 3 hour, 2 DVD video tutorial on the Sony EX-1. It should come out in January (maybe February???) and sells for $99.

Vortex Media; Mastering the Sony PMW-EX1: $99
http://www2.promax.com/Vortex-Media-Mastering-the-Sony-PMW-EX1


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz