Lucas Adamson
Well-known member
+1 Pretty please!
Blackout-Powell Native 24p Patch - GH1 FTW!!!
- Thread starter Lpowell
- Start date
+1 Pretty please!
rambooc1
Well-known member
Mr Powell has already said he would look into that further back in the thread. I'm guessing he's working on it right now.:smile:
Rambo, you're a mind reader!
Actually if anyone in PAListan wants to help investigate, I could use some field testing to determine the most stable 25p GOP-size. I've tested 1080p GOP-size from 12-20 frames, and my current candidate is 15 frames. Independent confirmation would be most appreciated.
Actually if anyone in PAListan wants to help investigate, I could use some field testing to determine the most stable 25p GOP-size. I've tested 1080p GOP-size from 12-20 frames, and my current candidate is 15 frames. Independent confirmation would be most appreciated.
rambooc1
Well-known member
Haha.. i also know you are a man of your word so i would have put money on your promise.
I'm onto it, testing 15 GOP right now.
R
Blackout
Veteran
Hello!
Sorry I have been late to comment on all this - I have been overworked on multiple music video and a few wall street projects - raising funds for my first actual film and finally going beyond the endless 'test footage'.
First off, most of the thanks of this hard work has to go to lpowell - I merely provided to him what I liked to call my "super secret ninja 24pn settings" because I refused to send anyone else my hack file after it blew up a few other people's cameras and they got mad at me and desperately kept asking how to get their camera working again and I wasn't exactly sure and felt bad about the whole affair and so decided to stop giving it out. I knew lpowell had the technical know how and would not only not blame me if something flubbed but would most likely fix and improve it.
Originally, I simply started with the jobless D settings way back when and it gave me some issues with 24pn checked too, but I was determined to make 24pn work or throw the GH1 out because pulldown removal looses quality and that's just that. .. and so I didn't care if I blew up the camera.. I kept tweaking a few things and played with the GOP and bitrates until I was finally fully satisfied with a very high level of detail and 'minimal' to almost no crashes on even highly complex scenes. I never bought the crazy sandisk card.. I use transcend 32 gig class 10s (I find the 32 to perform a lot better than the 16g for whatever reason).
Many kept asking me for my patch and I was not trying to be an ass, I just didn't want to put it out publicly because I did and still do have a strong feeling that there is a LOT of hardware camera build variance. A patch that works perfectly on my GH13 might blow yours up. While I am now aware of the 'empty' frames in the avchd stream of my original 24pn hack that has now been fixed by what lpowell has done - I have verified that those empty frames have no effect on my final videos because when I put into a timeline on Edius 6 or Vegas 10 - my editing programs of choice - they simply vanish, I have stepped through frame by frame and I get what I want - perfect 24p with extremely crisp detail that in my eyes completely blows away shooting at 720p and conforming or shooting in the wrapper and doing pulldown removal or going to an intermediate codec. It's a night and day difference of detail and motion characteristics as I have spoken about before and shown in some clips I have posted in various other threads.
I am still finding that I am getting slightly better quality out of my original patch than in this version - but I would not recommend my patch as this version is obviously much more stable and 'bad evil empty frames' are gone, and the slight increase in detail is probably not worth the reliability loss to most people So I am using this patch on my secondary camera but keeping my magical A cam as it is.... I'm not touching it.. if it ain't broke... don't fix it.
This should really be called the Powel-with A sprinkle of Blackout Magic 24p patch as he did most of the work, I just fought off the free mason Illuminati shape shifting anal probing lizards so he could work undisturbed, and added a dash of paprika to help him along.
I have some more testing to do to really do an a/b of this but I am soooo bogged down in editing that I am seeing pixels flash in rainbow colors... I think I need a beach vacation.
For those of you still having issues with this patch locking up.... I suggest the transcend 32 gig class 10 cards. If still having lockups... I fear my camera hardware variance theory is correct.
- Blackout
Sorry I have been late to comment on all this - I have been overworked on multiple music video and a few wall street projects - raising funds for my first actual film and finally going beyond the endless 'test footage'.
First off, most of the thanks of this hard work has to go to lpowell - I merely provided to him what I liked to call my "super secret ninja 24pn settings" because I refused to send anyone else my hack file after it blew up a few other people's cameras and they got mad at me and desperately kept asking how to get their camera working again and I wasn't exactly sure and felt bad about the whole affair and so decided to stop giving it out. I knew lpowell had the technical know how and would not only not blame me if something flubbed but would most likely fix and improve it.
Originally, I simply started with the jobless D settings way back when and it gave me some issues with 24pn checked too, but I was determined to make 24pn work or throw the GH1 out because pulldown removal looses quality and that's just that. .. and so I didn't care if I blew up the camera.. I kept tweaking a few things and played with the GOP and bitrates until I was finally fully satisfied with a very high level of detail and 'minimal' to almost no crashes on even highly complex scenes. I never bought the crazy sandisk card.. I use transcend 32 gig class 10s (I find the 32 to perform a lot better than the 16g for whatever reason).
Many kept asking me for my patch and I was not trying to be an ass, I just didn't want to put it out publicly because I did and still do have a strong feeling that there is a LOT of hardware camera build variance. A patch that works perfectly on my GH13 might blow yours up. While I am now aware of the 'empty' frames in the avchd stream of my original 24pn hack that has now been fixed by what lpowell has done - I have verified that those empty frames have no effect on my final videos because when I put into a timeline on Edius 6 or Vegas 10 - my editing programs of choice - they simply vanish, I have stepped through frame by frame and I get what I want - perfect 24p with extremely crisp detail that in my eyes completely blows away shooting at 720p and conforming or shooting in the wrapper and doing pulldown removal or going to an intermediate codec. It's a night and day difference of detail and motion characteristics as I have spoken about before and shown in some clips I have posted in various other threads.
I am still finding that I am getting slightly better quality out of my original patch than in this version - but I would not recommend my patch as this version is obviously much more stable and 'bad evil empty frames' are gone, and the slight increase in detail is probably not worth the reliability loss to most people So I am using this patch on my secondary camera but keeping my magical A cam as it is.... I'm not touching it.. if it ain't broke... don't fix it.
This should really be called the Powel-with A sprinkle of Blackout Magic 24p patch as he did most of the work, I just fought off the free mason Illuminati shape shifting anal probing lizards so he could work undisturbed, and added a dash of paprika to help him along.
I have some more testing to do to really do an a/b of this but I am soooo bogged down in editing that I am seeing pixels flash in rainbow colors... I think I need a beach vacation.
For those of you still having issues with this patch locking up.... I suggest the transcend 32 gig class 10 cards. If still having lockups... I fear my camera hardware variance theory is correct.
- Blackout
Sun and work permitting will do some further testing Tuesday. I have the Tiffen Fx1 and Fx3 to compare with the GH2 and GHBL, and a bunch of very sharp lenses including my Trusty Vivitar 90mm 2.5 macro.
(the Fx1 looks better to me but I haven't "shrubbed" it yet).
I didn't have much luck with my Inkjet printer with the resolution chart but I'll try some different paper. Has anyone tried printing a poster size resolution chart and filming it at a longer distance? Would this give a better resolution? Costco has cheap poster printing.
(the Fx1 looks better to me but I haven't "shrubbed" it yet).
I didn't have much luck with my Inkjet printer with the resolution chart but I'll try some different paper. Has anyone tried printing a poster size resolution chart and filming it at a longer distance? Would this give a better resolution? Costco has cheap poster printing.
rambooc1
Well-known member
ahhh.... shucks..... what date is the Wedding...haha
On a more serious note, while i'm waiting for my Tiffen filters to arrive, i've shot the same scenes that failed me originally with this patch a few days ago, but this time with the 15 GOP and 25pN and it does make a difference. So with this and the Tiffens, i'm just about ready to offer to shoot the Blackout/Powell union ... only joking ... i mean shoot my normal high motion on-water footage with this combination.
Say tuned and thanks again to BO and LP.
Rambo
Lucas Adamson
Well-known member
Hello!
Sorry I have been late to comment on all this - I have been overworked on multiple music video and a few wall street projects - raising funds for my first actual film and finally going beyond the endless 'test footage'.
First off, most of the thanks of this hard work has to go to lpowell - I merely provided to him what I liked to call my "super secret ninja 24pn settings" because I refused to send anyone else my hack file after it blew up a few other people's cameras and they got mad at me and desperately kept asking how to get their camera working again and I wasn't exactly sure and felt bad about the whole affair and so decided to stop giving it out. I knew lpowell had the technical know how and would not only not blame me if something flubbed but would most likely fix and improve it.
Originally, I simply started with the jobless D settings way back when and it gave me some issues with 24pn checked too, but I was determined to make 24pn work or throw the GH1 out because pulldown removal looses quality and that's just that. .. and so I didn't care if I blew up the camera.. I kept tweaking a few things and played with the GOP and bitrates until I was finally fully satisfied with a very high level of detail and 'minimal' to almost no crashes on even highly complex scenes. I never bought the crazy sandisk card.. I use transcend 32 gig class 10s (I find the 32 to perform a lot better than the 16g for whatever reason).
Many kept asking me for my patch and I was not trying to be an ass, I just didn't want to put it out publicly because I did and still do have a strong feeling that there is a LOT of hardware camera build variance. A patch that works perfectly on my GH13 might blow yours up. While I am now aware of the 'empty' frames in the avchd stream of my original 24pn hack that has now been fixed by what lpowell has done - I have verified that those empty frames have no effect on my final videos because when I put into a timeline on Edius 6 or Vegas 10 - my editing programs of choice - they simply vanish, I have stepped through frame by frame and I get what I want - perfect 24p with extremely crisp detail that in my eyes completely blows away shooting at 720p and conforming or shooting in the wrapper and doing pulldown removal or going to an intermediate codec. It's a night and day difference of detail and motion characteristics as I have spoken about before and shown in some clips I have posted in various other threads.
I am still finding that I am getting slightly better quality out of my original patch than in this version - but I would not recommend my patch as this version is obviously much more stable and 'bad evil empty frames' are gone, and the slight increase in detail is probably not worth the reliability loss to most people So I am using this patch on my secondary camera but keeping my magical A cam as it is.... I'm not touching it.. if it ain't broke... don't fix it.
This should really be called the Powel-with A sprinkle of Blackout Magic 24p patch as he did most of the work, I just fought off the free mason Illuminati shape shifting anal probing lizards so he could work undisturbed, and added a dash of paprika to help him along.
I have some more testing to do to really do an a/b of this but I am soooo bogged down in editing that I am seeing pixels flash in rainbow colors... I think I need a beach vacation.
For those of you still having issues with this patch locking up.... I suggest the transcend 32 gig class 10 cards. If still having lockups... I fear my camera hardware variance theory is correct.
- Blackout
I'm getting lock-ups on grass in deep focus, when I am trying to break the hack, of course, with Sandisk 30MB/s 16GB. I don't think it's the card, or the camera. I think it's 25pN.
I'm a fan of the 'camera hardware variance' theory. My 2009 China-made camera has virtually no FPN but does crash with some of these patches, even using cards others have declared safe. There are too many people reporting different results with the same patch/ card setup to discern a consistent pattern. The fact that some people have observed FPN reduce with various measures ('burn-in', the 'auto' method) and others haven't again points to hardware variance.
This patch is looking promising (25p). I'm sure it could fail if I used a sharp enough lens on deep focus grass though. That's no biggie
This patch is looking promising (25p). I'm sure it could fail if I used a sharp enough lens on deep focus grass though. That's no biggie
NB After reshooting the test chart under high cri lamps with a super sharp lens, IMHO the GH13 wins the test chart competition by a nose--very close. And moire, shocker, is either a draw or I like the GH13. Depends on what kind of moiree bugs you.
Well, after playing around with the two cams, there is is no question that they are both good.
Here's my unscientific thoughts
Outdoors, with a very sharp lens, there's a good chance to crash the GH13 at F4 or higher. Put a Tiffen Fx1 and you are a little better off, and the picture is very similar. Put an Fx3 on and you are pretty safe, but there is a slight haze over everything, which could be good for portraits, obviously. And many of us want shallow DOF, so shoot at 2.0 and all is well.
Indoors, after hours of filming concerts under very bright lights, I had zero issues with the 24 BP GH13, and, as usual, the video looked great.
I have to interject here that if I'm looking at the full size LCD TV from a distance of one foot, I wonder if any of this is really relevant.
Having said that, I do feel that the GH2 resolves slightly more detail (in leafy scenes--on the test chart see video below), and has less moire (at high ISO, for low ISO it seems too close or the GH13 is better). But, and importantly, the BP 24p GH13 has a more natural cadence, and subtle, fast motions look more realistic, like wind in the leaves.
NB The cadence alone of the GH13 BP makes this a desirable camera, no question.I didn't see any moire in real world shots, only on the test chart.
Color wise, ISO wise, matching the two cameras is a big drag. Would have been nice to have one of those settings be the same.
Noise wise I did not see a difference even at ISO 800. Go figure.
Photo wise the GH2 takes slightly better pictures.
I think if I was going to keep two, I would get two GH2s just 'cause I hate matching the cams in post and the etc mode is really handy. Add in the monitoring and the peaking, and, well, it is amazing how much a bag of fries benefits from some special sauce. Picture wise, they are both great. GH2 definitely is the best "spiny shrub cam."
However, I can't say that the GH2 is better. That test chart is very compelling.
http://vimeo.com/21999994
Well, after playing around with the two cams, there is is no question that they are both good.
Here's my unscientific thoughts
Outdoors, with a very sharp lens, there's a good chance to crash the GH13 at F4 or higher. Put a Tiffen Fx1 and you are a little better off, and the picture is very similar. Put an Fx3 on and you are pretty safe, but there is a slight haze over everything, which could be good for portraits, obviously. And many of us want shallow DOF, so shoot at 2.0 and all is well.
Indoors, after hours of filming concerts under very bright lights, I had zero issues with the 24 BP GH13, and, as usual, the video looked great.
I have to interject here that if I'm looking at the full size LCD TV from a distance of one foot, I wonder if any of this is really relevant.
Having said that, I do feel that the GH2 resolves slightly more detail (in leafy scenes--on the test chart see video below), and has less moire (at high ISO, for low ISO it seems too close or the GH13 is better). But, and importantly, the BP 24p GH13 has a more natural cadence, and subtle, fast motions look more realistic, like wind in the leaves.
NB The cadence alone of the GH13 BP makes this a desirable camera, no question.I didn't see any moire in real world shots, only on the test chart.
Color wise, ISO wise, matching the two cameras is a big drag. Would have been nice to have one of those settings be the same.
Noise wise I did not see a difference even at ISO 800. Go figure.
Photo wise the GH2 takes slightly better pictures.
I think if I was going to keep two, I would get two GH2s just 'cause I hate matching the cams in post and the etc mode is really handy. Add in the monitoring and the peaking, and, well, it is amazing how much a bag of fries benefits from some special sauce. Picture wise, they are both great. GH2 definitely is the best "spiny shrub cam."
However, I can't say that the GH2 is better. That test chart is very compelling.
http://vimeo.com/21999994
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Thanks for taking the time to produce this test video, DrDave. The first half (GH1?) of this video looks more exposed than the second half (GH2?), but it's still a good comparison.
DxOMark's ISO tests suggest that setting the GH1 at ISO 125 would produce a fairly close match to the GH2's exposure at ISO 160. If you have an opportunity to do another test, I'd suggest the following video settings for both cameras:
GH1: ISO 125
GH2: ISO 160
Creative Movie Mode: Manual
Smooth Film Mode: all settings 0
White Balance: sunlight
Aperture : f8 - f11
Shutter: 1/60 - 1/1000
I.Contrast: off
I.Resolution: off
Use a lens hood with no filter on lens
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Retest Chart--I like the GH13.
I retested the Chart at ISO 200 with a 90 mm Vivitar series 1 F/2.5 Macro.
The Vivitar is one of the sharpest lenses ever tested on photodo. It is a heavy, glass lens that just hammers resolution out of an image. I also set up CRI 93 lights.
And, to my surprise, I slightly prefer the GH13, and the moire is the same or the GH13 is better.
Shocker.
Video in ~15 minutes
I retested the Chart at ISO 200 with a 90 mm Vivitar series 1 F/2.5 Macro.
The Vivitar is one of the sharpest lenses ever tested on photodo. It is a heavy, glass lens that just hammers resolution out of an image. I also set up CRI 93 lights.
And, to my surprise, I slightly prefer the GH13, and the moire is the same or the GH13 is better.
Shocker.
Video in ~15 minutes
GH13 vs GH2 Test chart, Vivitar 90mm F/2.5 Macro ISO 200
Download, play on your TV and tell me which one is better
http://www.vimeo.com/22004620
Download, play on your TV and tell me which one is better
http://www.vimeo.com/22004620
Sorry, DrDave, it's not obvious to my eyes which camera produced the footage segments in your two videos. Please fill in the blanks:
http://vimeo.com/21999994
First segment: GH?
Second segment: GH?
http://www.vimeo.com/22004620
First segment: GH?
Second segment: GH?
OK--
I just ran these numbers, and even tweaking the histogram with the shutter speed to get the same exposure they look a tiny bit different. I suspect the in-cam contrast and sharpening is a tad higher on the GH2.
Uploading now, ready in ten minutes.
Well, yeah, it isn't a blind taste test with the label on. PM'd answers.
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Here it is
http://vimeo.com/22007097
All settings as per your request. Ready in 20 minutes unless Vimeo chews it up again.
Now Din Din!
http://vimeo.com/22007097
All settings as per your request. Ready in 20 minutes unless Vimeo chews it up again.
Now Din Din!
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