BlackMagic - URSA Mini

Ok, I will help everyone to chose THE best camera in 60 seconds. Here we go, start!


Today people consume media mostly on tablets and smart tv's. They watch stuff on tv's with turned on smooth motion (or whatever is called) and color profiles that are SO INTENSE that original grading is completely lost. I have seen that on Samsung tv. Is not like few years ago, where profiles were pumping blacks a little, maybe (de)saturating colors slightly... No. Todays profiles are like separate grades. What's saddest is the fact that people like that smooth motion and those profiles that completely takes away original work...

So which camera?
Any.

Almost no one will distinguish those differences. Only few passionates that we are :(

I think that's how it's going to be in the future. Certain devices will have their own look that will be applied on the screen. Sad.
 
alohype said:
... They watch stuff on tv's with turned on smooth motion (or whatever is called)...
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The "soap opera" effect.

A friend of mine picked up a new 4K TV recently and couldn't figure out what the heck that was. Eventually though, he recalibrated the whole set off suggestions found on several AV forums.
 
The end distribution problem discussed has long been paralleled in music with MP3 etc. But it's been there since LPs as well. I tend to think that tech now is actually making higher quality viewing more available. But it's still a Colby Jack world. But big factor for cams I think is highlight handling and ergonomics/efficiency of use. IF BMD can deliver on all these new products without huge delays, significant bugs or quality control issues, lots to like here.
 
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steve phillipps said:
But perhaps if BM hears enough about it their next model might have them. Or perhaps they or a third party might make something that could add it to the current model. And if nothing else it's an interesting talking point - which is a valid reason in itself to participate in these forums. That's my take on it anyway.
From my point of view built in NDs are pretty vital - try changing them from inside a hide when a wary animal is standing 50 feet away and see if it sticks around! Also for wildlife work as well as the difficulties of swapping filters the less you have to carry and juggle while perched on a cliff or in a metre of water the better. It is a niche sector of the market though I know.

Steve
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These posts are all well and good, until they actually do it and raise the cost of the cameras. When the camera's base price is as much as the FS7 because of an internal ND wheel, and suddenly you're asking "why would I go BMD instead of Sony? It's the same price" then what? One of the major draws here would be the cost of BMD cameras, a lot of you wouldn't be here if they were in the C300 price range.

Because BMD wants to satisfy the cries of people that they werent' designing for in the first place, they've gone and cut out their own niche market (cost to performance ratio) just because people want something that another manufacturer offers.

If they can do it without increasing cost to the consumer that they were targeting in the first place, all well and good. The second that they fall into a higher price bracket it's easy to predict how the people crying for features like these will react.

All over the place you're already reading "almost perfect camera, needs internal NDs but it's out of my budget, anyway."

... okay...

There are manufacturers that make tools for people doing the kind of work you describe above, some people will go the extra mile and still use this sort of tool anyway to get the IQ, still... let at least one company fill the needs of a niche that basically no other manufacturer was willing to touch with a thirty foot pole until BMD came along.

EDIT HERE: It's also very true that BMD listens. They may do what they think is best with the feedback, but they listen and listen hard. They've also got their own development cycles and some of the stuff that changes has zero to do with feedback, and just points they were already aware of and couldn't change in time. I highly doubt the Internal ND request is being ignored.
 
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alohype said:
Ok, I will help everyone to chose THE best camera in 60 seconds. Here we go, start!


Today people consume media mostly on tablets and smart tv's. They watch stuff on tv's with turned on smooth motion (or whatever is called) and color profiles that are SO INTENSE that original grading is completely lost. I have seen that on Samsung tv. Is not like few years ago, where profiles were pumping blacks a little, maybe (de)saturating colors slightly... No. Todays profiles are like separate grades. What's saddest is the fact that people like that smooth motion and those profiles that completely takes away original work...

So which camera?
Any.

Almost no one will distinguish those differences. Only few passionates that we are :(

I think that's how it's going to be in the future. Certain devices will have their own look that will be applied on the screen. Sad.
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+1

except for kodak film ...
 
Kholi said:
These posts are all well and good, until they actually do it and raise the cost of the cameras. When the camera's base price is as much as the FS7 because of an internal ND wheel, and suddenly you're asking "why would I go BMD instead of Sony? It's the same price" then what? One of the major draws here would be the cost of BMD cameras, a lot of you wouldn't be here if they were in the C300 price range.
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Not relevant to me as I have no interest in owning a camera at the moment - my jobs always come with gear. For me it's just an interesting talking point - it's a forum!
Steve
 
Kholi said:
... Because BMD wants to satisfy the cries of people that they werent' designing for in the first place, they've gone and cut out their own niche market (cost to performance ratio) just because people want something that another manufacturer offers...
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This is certainly something many a business has to be aware of.

I don't know how many folks live in the LA area but the local consumer electronics retail scene has had a bunch of chains - Rogers Sound Lab, Adray's, Federated, even to some extent Good Guys and Circuit City, which had greater territorial coverages - have closed the door for good because the management decided to switch the basic concept of what these chains were after commissioning a marketing/customer survey.

BMD has a solid niche here - they basically don't need to play by the rules established by the Japanese electronics companies and they should be able to find a small gap here and there that isn't being instantly served by the slower moving Japanese conglomerates.
 
Kholi said:
These posts are all well and good, until they actually do it and raise the cost of the cameras. When the camera's base price is as much as the FS7 because of an internal ND wheel, and suddenly you're asking "why would I go BMD instead of Sony? It's the same price" then what? One of the major draws here would be the cost of BMD cameras, a lot of you wouldn't be here if they were in the C300 price range.

Because BMD wants to satisfy the cries of people that they werent' designing for in the first place, they've gone and cut out their own niche market (cost to performance ratio) just because people want something that another manufacturer offers.

If they can do it without increasing cost to the consumer that they were targeting in the first place, all well and good. The second that they fall into a higher price bracket it's easy to predict how the people crying for features like these will react.

All over the place you're already reading "almost perfect camera, needs internal NDs but it's out of my budget, anyway."

... okay...

There are manufacturers that make tools for people doing the kind of work you describe above, some people will go the extra mile and still use this sort of tool anyway to get the IQ, still... let at least one company fill the needs of a niche that basically no other manufacturer was willing to touch with a thirty foot pole until BMD came along.

EDIT HERE: It's also very true that BMD listens. They may do what they think is best with the feedback, but they listen and listen hard. They've also got their own development cycles and some of the stuff that changes has zero to do with feedback, and just points they were already aware of and couldn't change in time. I highly doubt the Internal ND request is being ignored.
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Black Magic are promoting the Mini as a "run and gun camera" themselves though, and they attribute the rapid evolution of their ergonomics to listening to what their customers say that they want: https://vimeo.com/124932227
Personally I love the image from my Pocket and I will do whatever I have to do to get my hands on the URSA Mini 4.6K and I can live without internal ND's to get 15 stops of DR and that color ......... however I think if people want internal ND's they are right to say so and no one should patronize them or attempt to shut down the debate.
 
Kholi said:
These posts are all well and good, until they actually do it and raise the cost of the cameras. When the camera's base price is as much as the FS7 because of an internal ND wheel, and suddenly you're asking "why would I go BMD instead of Sony? It's the same price" then what? One of the major draws here would be the cost of BMD cameras, a lot of you wouldn't be here if they were in the C300 price range.

Because BMD wants to satisfy the cries of people that they werent' designing for in the first place, they've gone and cut out their own niche market (cost to performance ratio) just because people want something that another manufacturer offers.

If they can do it without increasing cost to the consumer that they were targeting in the first place, all well and good. The second that they fall into a higher price bracket it's easy to predict how the people crying for features like these will react.

All over the place you're already reading "almost perfect camera, needs internal NDs but it's out of my budget, anyway."

... okay...

There are manufacturers that make tools for people doing the kind of work you describe above, some people will go the extra mile and still use this sort of tool anyway to get the IQ, still... let at least one company fill the needs of a niche that basically no other manufacturer was willing to touch with a thirty foot pole until BMD came along.

EDIT HERE: It's also very true that BMD listens. They may do what they think is best with the feedback, but they listen and listen hard. They've also got their own development cycles and some of the stuff that changes has zero to do with feedback, and just points they were already aware of and couldn't change in time. I highly doubt the Internal ND request is being ignored.
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Damn strong post.
 
DLD said:
The "soap opera" effect.

A friend of mine picked up a new 4K TV recently and couldn't figure out what the heck that was. Eventually though, he recalibrated the whole set off suggestions found on several AV forums.
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Or 48/50/60fps effect. Everything is sped up, looks like films from the beginning of cinema. Whenever I visit someone and see that they have tv with that option on (which is by default on almost all tv's!!!) I offer to switch it off. The worst part is that people say that at first it was annoying for them but now they like it AND PREFER!!!
Hopelessness...

My worst cinema experience was watching Hobbit in 48fps + 3D. I don't think it can go any worse then that.
 
i would literally kill someone to obtain one of these cameras if it had built in nd filters and a less expensive alternative to cfast cards. all in all it's a very good camera, but their oversight is keeping me from murdering someone and having to serve a lengthy jail sentence. which is a good thing, depending upon your perspective.
 
alohype said:
Or 48/50/60fps effect. Everything is sped up, looks like films from the beginning of cinema. Whenever I visit someone and see that they have tv with that option on (which is by default on almost all tv's!!!) I offer to switch it off. The worst part is that people say that at first it was annoying for them but now they like it AND PREFER!!!
Hopelessness...

My worst cinema experience was watching Hobbit in 48fps + 3D. I don't think it can go any worse then that.
Click to expand...

Well there are people who like the film cadence and then there are those that like things to look real. I am one of those people and have my TV set with interpolation set to ON. Things are not speeded up but frames are interpolated to fill in the gaps left by a slow frame rate. Real time is the same just no juddering motion. I accept that fictional film making should be able to use all available means to create the mood of the film. Grading , composition and frame rate etc. However there is lots of data that shows people view frame rates less than 48fps to have an unreal feel or fictional and those above 48fps are viewed as real. Consequently I am happy to have fiction shot at anything less than 48fps but do not like documentaries or things that purport to be real to be shot at slow frame rates. Shoot in 60i or 60P if you want people to believe.
 
Any update whether the Mini, or EVF, has exposure aids besides a Histrogram? False Color, or even Waveform, would make the camera so much more useable.
 
Ron Evans said:
Well there are people who like the film cadence and then there are those that like things to look real. I am one of those people and have my TV set with interpolation set to ON. Things are not speeded up but frames are interpolated to fill in the gaps left by a slow frame rate. Real time is the same just no juddering motion. I accept that fictional film making should be able to use all available means to create the mood of the film. Grading , composition and frame rate etc. However there is lots of data that shows people view frame rates less than 48fps to have an unreal feel or fictional and those above 48fps are viewed as real. Consequently I am happy to have fiction shot at anything less than 48fps but do not like documentaries or things that purport to be real to be shot at slow frame rates. Shoot in 60i or 60P if you want people to believe.
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Hmm... Actually I have to agree. Reality stuff, sports, animal documentaries (people doco no - most of them I find on borderline between fiction and reality. I would prefer them to stay lower fps). But feature films and dramas a big no no NO. It's a fiction and should stayed perceived as a fiction in my brain. Otherwise everything seems upside down.
 
ugafan said:
i would literally kill someone to obtain one of these cameras if it had built in nd filters and a less expensive alternative to cfast cards. all in all it's a very good camera, but their oversight is keeping me from murdering someone and having to serve a lengthy jail sentence. which is a good thing, depending upon your perspective.
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Here's a very to-the-point question: would you spend 10,000 for it including media and batteries if you don't own them?

12,000?

Pretty simple question and likely the reality of it. It's pretty plausible that with R&D, materials, etc. that the camera's cost leaps from a base of say 7K to own to 10K (Media and power)

Are we even talking the same kind of performance to cost ratio?
 
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