Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K price drop

NorBro said:
"This price reduction has been made possible because no one uses a PL mount."

lol. (They didn't say that.)

___

Come on, BMD, if you're reading...that was just silly. It's 2022 and PL is for the 1% with house money.
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I don't think I'm in the 1% and I use/own some PL mount lenses and cameras. I know lots of guys with PL mount glass and cameras, and they're not making movies or national commercials, either. PL mount doesn't just mean Master Primes. You can get a lot of "affordable" glass in PL, because a lot of the mid-range stuff is available with different mounts, including PL.

That being said, I like cameras and lenses with swappable/adaptable mounts.
 
IMO, you're kind of in that last generation of blue-collar cameramen/women who are tried and true and learned video production at a great time and saw many major changes in technology, but you're still in the overall 1% (which isn't just Hollywood) because of the kind of cameras you've purchased in your life.

Multiple expensive Varicams ranging from $20K-$40K, a F55 that was most likely over $45K for a full package with an EVF...plus everything else you've owned in your life (and this is going by just what I have learned about you from a forum over the years).

And that's just not normal today, lol.

And affordable to you might mean a nice used S35 servo for $15K but not to many others. To me, there were actually no affordable PL lenses up until about 2 years ago when the Xeens dropped to $2500 (per lens). Now we have another options in DZOFilm who were asking around $1200 per lens (just raised prices to $1400 last month), but that price is still questionable to many kids who are looking for AF and IS in a lens that they can also use to shoot photos with.
 
Just in case anyone isn't clear on what this camera shoots. This camera unlike the other BM cameras WILL NOT SHOOT PRORES or AVID DNX. They promote Prores capability on the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 and the URSA Broadcast but fail to mention that these codecs are not available on this camera. Lack of transparency by omission? I don't know? So as long as you are happy to work in BRAW only this is a great deal. Not so good if you need to hand off footage in Prores to a client expecting that.

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
Just in case anyone isn't clear on what this camera shoots. This camera unlike the other BM cameras WILL NOT SHOOT PRORES or AVID DNX. They promote Prores capability on the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 and the URSA Broadcast but fail to mention that these codecs are not available on this camera. Lack of transparency by omission? I don't know? So as long as you are happy to work in BRAW only this is a great deal. Not so good if you need to hand off footage in Prores to a client expecting that.

Chris Young
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It's a bad deal all around if your clients are expecting 8K/12K deliverables in Prores. They are out of luck! Codec doesn't support 8K/12K! :crybaby:
Prores makes little sense for the BMD 12K. It's a unique camera that supports 12K 60p and 8K 120p but it needs its own codec, and it has a great one.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Very true. Funny how Panasonic was criticized for years for in camera corrections and now its kind of becoming a norm for everyone else. Its those corrections why I'm concerned Canon is starting to cut more corners wit their lens designs. The 24-240 RF for example has some of the worse barrel distortion ever. With corrections it gets back to a decent level. Granted super zooms are ever far from perfect but I think the lower budget RF lenses are going to take more advantage of those corrections to keep the lens cost down.
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Taking advantage of those corrections also keeps the lens size down, which is generally welcome.

But yeah, there are problems from leaning on in-camera corrections too heavily, or at least it's not ideal. Better to have to correct as little as possible.

The tamron 28-200 seems to be better than either the canon or sony superzooms that are available, but I don't think they make it in RF mount yet (and obviously you lose some range, but worth it IMO)
 
This....

DLD said:
That's a legitimate argument but, if one looks what is happening on the hybrid consumer market in general and Canon's share of global sales in particular, it's pretty difficult to suggest they change course. They're happy with the status quo. No soup, I mean AF, for you!

PS. They're also likely to make cine glass with AF, similar to Sony's 16-35, and they're likely betting on muscling Red and ARRI out of the high end production as well.

PPS. Canon's low end all-in-one zooms are basically made for the sub-$1,000 camera niche.
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Not to get slightly off topic, but a few things are happening in the marketplace that I have been picking up on somewhat related to this post. I am a RED owner (Gasp) and currently own Gemini and Komodo but I also own a Sony A7r IV and A7r II with a significant amount of Sony and Zeiss glass for stills and lower end budget work my company does, so I see both the high end commercial marketplace and the prosumer market at the same time.

Here is some interesting things I have been able to pick-up on.

1) FYI, Monstro is selling lower than it has ever sold before. You can currently pick up a battle tested Monstro for around $24k, which is about 60% under original market price of $60k. This is alarming to me, and tells me RED and rental houses are liquidating their "full frame crop". This also goes for DSMC2 in general which took a hit due to Komodo, however Komodo is still staying high in price due to what I believe to be an artificially created "limited demand", even know the camera falls short of DSMC2 in terms of IQ and price point considering all the add-ons komodo requires to make it a functional A-cam.

"Applauds to RED for their great marketing tactics once again...."

In the RED landscape I feel that DSCM3 is closer around the corner than many may think. I think Komodo was an intermediary which, seems to be leaked DSCM3 tech that was able to keep RED in the green for 2020-2021, but I think it really is just a tease of DSCM3 tech and form factor that is to come in 2022. In terms of upgrades I expect for DSCM3, full frame sensors should be pretty much standard as you can always window resolution down to a S35 crop so there really is no advantage of a smaller sensor in 2022. Larger sensors either allow for more pixels (i.e. resolution) or larger pixels (i.e. dynamic range) so again there is no benefit to smaller sensors going forward in 2022. I expect the small sized Komodo package for DSCM3 only with VV options, better frame rates and additional ports for accessories (i.e. timecode, sync, control, etc.) and better direct mount battery modules and interchangeable lens mount options. Maybe we will finally see internal ND with RED cameras as well. I expect to see RED break the 12k resolution realm with their next VV sensor also. I mean the industry seems ultra focused on extra K's for marketing alone, which is disappointing but it is the way it is and I think RED still will always want to be king in the resolution and frame rate game (outside of Phatoms) with such a strong focus on nature doc work and sports. Ironically, I still find Gemini to be the most pleasing image from RED cameras with its manageable 5k resolution and extra large photo sites, which is a big reason I still own it as a "poor mans Alexa".

2) If you haven't noticed everyone is unloading S35 Cine Zooms right now as well in the current marketplace (i.e. Canon CN-E, Angenieux Optimo DP, Fujinons, etc.) at very low prices. Google a few on eBay and you will see what used to be $10-20k S35 zooms are now selling for 25% of their original retail. I have been waiting for this moment for a long time to finally try and pick-up a set of used Angenieux DP's at a decent price, until I realized through use over the last year how limited they are to be used on large sensors. What is the point of owning a Monstro or Alexa LF or even an R5 if you have to window down your resolution just to use them with s35 zooms. I even have trouble with coverage of S35 zooms on Gemini which is S35+. My point on this take is that the changing mount market (EF->RF) in my belief has nothing to do with a better mirrorless style mounting system even though that is an advantage with smaller flange distance. EF lenses adapt perfectly fine to RF mounts on most of Canon's R line-up and even on Komodo. Yes, this gives Canon an opportunity to re-build all their EF lineup into RF lenses with slightly better specs and performance than the now "old school EF glass", which really is just another great way to continue the capitalistic mindset of talking all those existing Canon users into investing another 10k in a new modern mirrorless lens set that really does the same as what they already have. Ultimately this change in mount is an even bigger and more monumental opportunity for Canon to come out with an entire set of new RF FULL FRAME CINEMA ZOOMS, which will take the cinema market by storm. Right now the Zeiss CZ series, Angenieux EZ and the Leitz Zoom set are really the only truly full frame cinema options available outside of insanely large Fuji offerings. These lenses are all out of reach of most prosumers and are rented even in the high-end market all costing over $20k. Furthermore, even the EZ series just uses a rear interchangeable optical group / expander which is why Angenieux just announced a new set of true FF zooms.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2021/07/...compact-zooms/

I promise Canon's FF cinema line-up is just around the corner and will follow shortly after they release their new full frame 8k cinema series cameras at NAB this year....

There is a huge void in market space for FF cinema zooms that cover large sensors and I wouldn't be surprised if we even see a series from Canon with AF for their new cinema line-up, which is the number one way to push back on RED and Arri in the high end market. If you can get the high end industry to adopt AF in cinema zooms, then where does that leave Arri and RED? Canon will probably never make a sensor that is leagues above what Arri or RED can produce, which is evident in their attempt at using dual-gain output and internal processing to increase dynamic range (not true RAW), so how do you compete? You compete by changing the industry alltogether by creating a "new use" for your technology (i.e. AF Cinema Zoom).

This is utlimately what BMD was trying to do with the UMP-12K for VFX work. The issue with that camera is its extremely small photo sites (i.e. 2.2 micron pixel pitch). When you smash a ton of small tiny pixels in small space (S35 sensor) you may get high resolution but at the cost of temporal and spacial artifacts, which is something you cannot absolutely have in the VFX realm. More resolution real estate is great for reframing and creating plates, but not if your sensor cannot creat a perfectly clean image. Komodo's global shutter has found to be a win for VFX work for this exact reason. Monstro is also very popular in this realm until Komodo hit the streets. BMD had the right idea with the UMP 12K for VFX studio use, but they didn't quite get it right like they do on pretty much every camera they release.

If you ask me RF is definitely capitalistic in theory and is all about selling more lenses in the DSLR world as you really can't tell me that an EF-L series on an R5 is really that much worse than RF, which is nearly double the price.... But it is great marketing non-the less and if you own a $4000 R5, wouldn't you want be touting around the latest and most fancy glass too?

To me (EF->RF) is more about trying to corner the cinema market (in secret low-key canon fashion) by creating new large format cinema zooms, which will literally take the professional market by storm once a few DP's and directors start requesting them to reduce crew (i.e. 1st / 2nd AC, etc.) and expenditure (i.e. follow focus, extra monitors for focus pulling etc.). As much as I personally hate autofocus from a creative control perspective, the minute a company gets it RIGHT and it actually works on par as a dedicated focus puller then I really see very little excuses to not accept it unfortunately.

On bigger projects, the camera sensor is selected after the director or producer picks what lensing and look they are after which ultimately makes the biggest effect on your image. If you are shooting predominantly on FF primes for an feature and want some zoom shots mixed in, what options do you currently have in 2021? There are only about 3-4 common FF zooms in existence, and 1-2 of which are readily available for rent at most local houses. FF zooms are extremely limited and what I find most is I just end up windowing down the sensor and shooting in S35 due to accessibility and price of whats available for most projects.

Going forward with so many FF sensor options out there and more coming in 2022, it in only makes sense for the lens market to follow suit.

This to me is really what RF is really all about.
 
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Creating full-frame cinema zooms with a RF mount is a great idea, and very welcome, but I don't know if it's going to change anything as much as you're thinking, TBH, because all of the people in charge at that high level would first have to fully adapt AF.

And AF alone wouldn't force anyone to use their cameras, and eventually everyone will be creating full-frame cinema zooms anyhow that can be used with various manual glass auto-focus systems as they are right now (although the AI is better).

If they want to push back on RED and ARRI, the camera/sensor will always be #1.
 
NorBro said:
Creating full-frame cinema zooms in a RF mount is a great idea, and very welcome, but I don't know if it's going to change anything as much as you're thinking, TBH, because all of the people in charge at that high level would first have to fully adapt AF.

And AF alone wouldn't force anyone to use their cameras, and eventually everyone will be creating full-frame cinema zooms anyhow.

If they want to push back on RED and ARRI, the camera/sensor will always be #1.
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Not necessarily true. Alexa S35 4k is coming out very soon for this exact reason that Alexa LF does not cover S35 zooms. So on set they can use the LF Alexa with FF primes and the S35 4K Alexa with your industry standard S35 zooms in order to maintain a 4k delivery. This is their short term fix because Arri makes several great FF prime lens offerings but it is really not their focus and they aren't always the most popular when it comes to zooms which they partner with Fuji on. Directors and DP's are bitching about this issue and companies are starting to listen (i.e. Zeiss, Angenieux, Tokina, Loawa). Zeiss already pretty much dominates the FF zoom market with the CZ offering which is cold and slightly harsh if you ask me, and now Angenieux is going to be right there too with their new truly FF Optimos which i'm sure will be lovely. The only company lagging behind right now in the cinema zoom market is Canon (i.e. CN-E) so the FF zooms are coming I guarantee it. Tokina is trying but they screwed up with their new 25-75 having it only be S35+ and not truly FF.

I get the whole AF debate. I personally only ever shoot on cinema lenses or my Leica-R duclos mods, and I get that there is going to be some insane resistance from the traditional Hollywood market. But that was the same resistance from film to digital or mirrored to mirrorless as we quickly forget those fiascos which now seem commonplace. I just did a job for NBC peacock not to long-ago which was all tele-conferenced a few several states away to an out of state director and producer using zoom. We shot everything this way which was a pain in the ass being micromanaged via an 8-bit zoom feed in terms of getting the exact look and lighting they wanted. The way I see it with AI and new technology we Director's, DP's, AC's etc. better get used to streamlining technology, whether we like it as traditionalist or not.

I see things like robotics, AI, AF, Lidar focus, etc. to all surpass an AC with average eyes and bad reaction time, or a Camera Op with a huge payload and a bad back. It is just something we are going to have to accept and it will only take 1 traditionalist like Deacons or somebody to shoot a feature using new technology and that will be that. Like it or not it is coming and we are all going to hate it at first, then adopt it because we will have to in order to stay relevant lol.
 
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Hey, just for the record...I'm 1000% with AF and haven't manually focused since 2016 (I mean I have, but I'm trying to make a point).

1DX Mark II...and I was never the same. First face-tracking, then eye-AF, now object learning; it's the best.

I've always thought the old-timers take a long time to change and I've always said it will be different with the next generation or two in charge - and the lenses are of course coming based on Canon's general business roadmap - but I just still don't see them changing much because ARRI's cameras are so good.

The LFs had the FW updates to cover S35 after worldwide feedback and if it was that pressing of an issue, ARRI's new S35 camera wouldn't have been delayed 2 years, IMO.

I'm interested in seeing what happens.
 
FWIW, the R5-to-Atmos Ninja 5+ 8K ProRes Raw news also had to have weighed in. Now, you can have unlimited recording with top notch image quality and - wait for it - no overheating. Full frame. AF. Who needs ARRI?
 
I would definitely agree as a nobody and a paper spec spectator on a forum, but that's not how it works in real life...at least not yet.

I do agree with sleek tho that all it will take is a few big names to get the ball rolling, but they just haven't done that yet.

I think a bigger threat than Canon would be an auto-focusing Venice 2 because that one has actually made larger-than-life blockbusters already.
 
@ sleekmedia
That's all very interesting from a Red user perspective, and I'm sure it's true in your circles, but there is a subset of value conscious buyers. Grant had said the Ursa 12K was targeted for the "very high end." I doubted that from the beginning as the opening $9995 price point didn't square with the high end buyer. In my mind, the Ursa 12K was always destined as an attainable mid tier value proposition for a camera that would play by itself in a lonely corner of the high end sandbox with no friends, mingle with the middle class C70, C200, FX6 but would largely succeed in doing more than the high end cinema brands for less money, with more resolution, better color, better codec, more media options, more frame rates and a comprehensive ecosystem spanning some good hardware and recurring software support, with a pricing model that invites membership. The Ursa 12K doesn't have the pedigree, won't be offered club membership, isn't hip but is respected as the Eagle Scout that paid its own college tuition, made its own rules, skipped the stampede to FF and AF, didn't run with the bulls but didn't get trampled either.

For me, The Ursa 12K is practically a no brainer at $5995. I have the EF glass, I have the S-35 PL cinema glass. I can put it to use that pays its way without Netflix, without the big budget, and for that reason, I don't care who's chasing the FF trend or what others are doing, this camera will get the job done right with whoever wants to love it. And at $5995, I think at that price I do want to show it some love, more than Komodo, more that C70, more than C300 MkIII, more than Alpha 1, more than R5, more than FX6 and even FX9. 8K/120p/BRAW could the badass bully that would knock you down and take your lunch money if you tried to mock it.
 
NorBro said:
Did you get one? :wink:
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No, I wrote all that in the hope you’d let me borrow the one on your shelf before you sell it. Plus, B&H online ordering isn’t open on Saturday. I’m playing around with the F55 raw to tell myself I don’t need the 12K. Self control I fear is futile.
 
Had it on the mountains for a few days over by Telluride, you just missed me...ha.

If the camera had ProRes, at least 8K (there actually is 8K ProRes but not 12K like you included), and a EF mount, I would have considered it last year.

I know how absolutely amazing BRAW is but just completely useless for me.
 
NorBro said:
Had it on the mountains for a few days over by Telluride, you just missed me...ha.
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Just so you missed the mudslides that have closed I-70 for weeks..

If the camera had ProRes, at least 8K (there actually is 8K ProRes but not 12K like you included), and a EF mount, I would have considered it last year.
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Prores 8K? I hate it when that happens. I'm buying the Black Magic EF mount, it's only $175 to have both EF and PL.
 
NorBro said:
IMO, you're kind of in that last generation of blue-collar cameramen/women who are tried and true and learned video production at a great time and saw many major changes in technology, but you're still in the overall 1% (which isn't just Hollywood) because of the kind of cameras you've purchased in your life.

Multiple expensive Varicams ranging from $20K-$40K, a F55 that was most likely over $45K for a full package with an EVF...plus everything else you've owned in your life (and this is going by just what I have learned about you from a forum over the years).

And that's just not normal today, lol.

And affordable to you might mean a nice used S35 servo for $15K but not to many others. To me, there were actually no affordable PL lenses up until about 2 years ago when the Xeens dropped to $2500 (per lens). Now we have another options in DZOFilm who were asking around $1200 per lens (just raised prices to $1400 last month), but that price is still questionable to many kids who are looking for AF and IS in a lens that they can also use to shoot photos with.
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You're probably right, applying those numbers to today, but when I was buying(most of) that type of stuff, it was back when that's what you had to buy. A few of my friends haven't made large camera purchases since our last round of VariCam's. A lot of them went to Fs7's. I remember when the original C300 came out and guys were buying those and not even thinking twice about, because they were (way) less than half of what we had been paying for cameras. And now that's considered expensive.

I haven't bought a camera in six years. Does that change my average? Maybe I'm in the 12%, now. Lol ; )
 
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