puredrifting
Major Contributor
They have for NAB. I was in a Panasonic promo for NAB introducing a new camera quite a few years ago.
Blackmagic press conference
- Thread starter SiSS
- Start date
They have for NAB. I was in a Panasonic promo for NAB introducing a new camera quite a few years ago.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Wow, that was a lot of hype for some small announcements. Technically, this announcement was bush league as well. Honestly, it feels as if BMD, with cameras and production gear, is always "almost there" but when things are put into users hands, there are too many gotchas and blown delivery dates. I am rooting for them, the Japanese, Arri and RED need some competition but BMD just doesn't seem to be it yet. They remind me of Hyundai about 10 years ago. They were close but just didn't "get it" yet. But today they are on the verge of toppling the Japanese. BMD could do the same eventually. But even probably their best product, the URSA Mini, still has too many drawbacks and limitations for many people.
IMHO BMD's best products don't have a lot to do with cameras. They are more on the post-production side.
Though I think the original BMCC was a nice coup d'etat.
NorBro
Major Contributor
IMO, Blackmagic is single-handedly responsible for changing the industry.
If it wasn't for BM...here's how I see it:
The C300 Mark II would be $30K.
The FS7II would be $20K.
No RED Raven. No Scarlet-W. Certainly not for the current prices.
Kinefinity would never have started making cameras.
Canon DSLRs would still be shooting HD.
All mirrorless and point-and-shoots wouldn't exist with the features they have today.
And more.
When the BMCC was released in 2012, it had the best looking image of any camera ever created in this world at that price. Nothing could compete at that price. Never.
Currently, everyone has caught up with the tech, and BM are no longer offering anything to write home about, but I truly think they made Sony become really aggressive, which was the best move for everyone in this industry as Panasonic and Canon had to follow.
Just my opinion. And I always get really upset with them (love-hate relationship), but I think we are very lucky to have this company.
Andrew Stone
Veteran
Product page for the 3 Live Production products announced today...
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/hyperdeckstudiomini
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/hyperdeckstudiomini
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I agree too. I love their post products and I think eventually they could own the low to medium end camera market if they play it right.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
I'm an ATEM Television Studio user (one of these days I'll get around to making a video of my custom DP cart) and was initially excited about the new version, but turns out that for my usage there's nothing particularly useful going on. Couple of extra inputs are good, the vastly increased compatibility with incoming formats was long overdue but unfortunately, one major one is apparently not supported still and that is 1080 23.98psf. Sadly that's a dealbreaker because I'm running each input through a Decimator MD-HX and I'd still have to continue doing that. Oh well.
If it wasn't for BMD, Red would have had an $8,000 camera and AJA Cion would have been an option for ~ $10,000 (it's selling for $5,000 now). And someone would have picked Kinefinity's US distribution rights.
Sony's 4K DSLM's have nothing to do with BMD either. The technology has basically allowed the cartel to allocate Panasonic the low end 4K lineup (without counting the fixed lens camcorders, how many 4K models do they have now? ... about eight?), with Sony picking up the midrange, Canon and Nikon the high end pro sports and Panasonic again pro camcorders. In total global shipments, BMD is an insignificant nothing (or the Japanese wouldn't be crippling their own products to such an extent). They haven't displaced ARRI, Sony, Red and Canon in the high end pro market. They hadn't made a dent in the DSLR sales. What they did well was to secure a decent niche for itself. And made a lot of money off it.
NorBro
Major Contributor
For me, it's not really a conversation about displacing anyone, and I'm not really into the Japanese business model talk.
I know you like to talk specs and post about all of these cameras and their paper performance, but until you (rhetorically speaking) have shot and worked with many different systems over the years, you will not have a better perspective of what's happened and is happening.
There has been so much overpriced garbage out there, and we desperately needed a company like Blackmagic to come around and provide high-quality images (even with dozens of other issues) for lower prices.
Directly or indirectly, I think they have forced others to make better products for us for less money.
I know you like to talk specs and post about all of these cameras and their paper performance, but until you (rhetorically speaking) have shot and worked with many different systems over the years, you will not have a better perspective of what's happened and is happening.
There has been so much overpriced garbage out there, and we desperately needed a company like Blackmagic to come around and provide high-quality images (even with dozens of other issues) for lower prices.
Directly or indirectly, I think they have forced others to make better products for us for less money.
Last edited:
I just watched some of the recorded web stream, it didn't get any better. The stills from the computer sure looked good, but all the cameras were still a mess.
As far as what BMD did for the industry, they definitely disrupted the norm. Like their products or not, they've done a lot to force other companies to tag along or fail. I have a pile of their throw down converters, many of them in service 24/7. Haven't used any of their cameras, so can't really comment on their features or lack there-of.
As far as what BMD did for the industry, they definitely disrupted the norm. Like their products or not, they've done a lot to force other companies to tag along or fail. I have a pile of their throw down converters, many of them in service 24/7. Haven't used any of their cameras, so can't really comment on their features or lack there-of.
I'm cautiously optimistic that Blackmagic is learning its lesson about missed delivery dates. For the 3 products announced today, for example, they claim all 3 are available now. So I assume they have started shipping units to resellers already.
Most of the products they announced at NAB 2016 (Video Assist 4K, HDMI/SDI Micro Converters, MultiView 4) were also available shortly after they were announced. And the Ursa Mini 4.0 firmware they previewed at NAB and said would be available in Summer 2016 was available as a public beta in August (though the final release wasn't until October).
But at least there are some signs of improvement on that front.
Most of the products they announced at NAB 2016 (Video Assist 4K, HDMI/SDI Micro Converters, MultiView 4) were also available shortly after they were announced. And the Ursa Mini 4.0 firmware they previewed at NAB and said would be available in Summer 2016 was available as a public beta in August (though the final release wasn't until October).
But at least there are some signs of improvement on that front.
indiawilds
Veteran
Please make a video and share with us. There is much to learn.
Have they made Canon release a professional $10,000 cine style camera? Panasonic? Nikon? JVC?
No. And you know why? Because, aside the very high end where the Germans have their say, the market is controlled by the Japanese conglomerates. BMD is just not a big enough dog to win the fight. They shrewdly picked a perfect - for the time being - market niche. It happened to coincide with a high portion of the DVX User niche but it didn't make a dent for the Charles Papert class of pro cinematographers nor for the budget driven YouTuber's.
PS. I took flak on the Sony boards for basically supporting the notion that Ursa 4.6K is more or less Alexa for 1/10th of the price. Which it is on specs but the high end pros don't seem to be in a hurry to accept any substitutes for their ARRI lines.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
If BMD had not rocked the world with its first cameras, somebody else would have done it. Just a few months later, maybe a year. Two at most. The tech was there, readily available for anybody willing to play with it. BMD just happened to have the engineering talend and financial muscle to come first to market, which wiped all the other upcoming similar projects.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Maybe they didn't make Canon release a professional $10,000 cinema camera, but maybe they made Sony release one (the FS7). And maybe that caused the C300 Mark II to drop to $12K. And maybe that caused the Panasonic Varicam LT to be released for $16,500 rather than $26,500. And maybe other things happened for various reasons that we'll never know.
Again, you have to understand that my argument isn't for who's winning the fight.
Last edited:
puredrifting
Major Contributor
FWIW, I am not a high end pro like Charles obviously. I occasionally rent and get to shoot with the tools he uses in a daily basis, but in my little world, it's more about portability, shooting on the fly and I use a lot of different cameras these days, everything from Go Pros up to the Amira. I almost took the plunge with the BMD Ursa Mini except for a few nagging things. The fact that they promised a global shutter but couldn't deliver it turned me off. The camera is not good in low light and unfortunately low light is my stock in trade for certain clients and projects although the majority of the scenes I shoot are lit. But in documentary filmmaking, I am often at the mercy of subjects and situations that require shooting in low, really low light and I cannot change that. My C100 does pretty well at ISO 2500, that's just not an option with the Ursa Mini. Lastly, a friend who made a film with the original BMD Cinema Camera had nothing but stress from repeated and pervasive breakdowns and malfunctions. I know the Ursa Mini's reliability has greatly improved from the original BMD camera but in the back of my mind, can I stake my reputation on reliably capturing a once in a lifetime moment with a BMD camera? Not yet. Perhaps someday. In speaking with users, a few of my colleagues have still been hung out to dry by BMD as far as the reliability of their cameras. I too have some BMD convertors that have been nothing flawless and have ran for years and years. They are not quite there on cameras yet. I think they have the potential to disrupt the market and take some decent market share from Sony, Canon and Panasonic, but they have not yet hit the home run camera that can do that.
Bassman2003
Veteran
BMD sure is an interesting company. Their business model seems to be all over the map. Their product lines go in every direction and they have free stuff too. I think the frenetic style of the company actually hurts them in the end. It does not garner trust from an end user. I looked at Ursa Mini 4.6 for a while but was not crazy about the form factor and the lower base ISO for my uses. It think they hit the target they were shooting for though. I would be interested in an Ursa Micro with a better, more sensitive sensor in a smaller hand holdable, more camcorder like form factor. I like the RAW approach. I like the company and appreciate their willingness to offer products at a more reasonable margin compared to the big boys. They just need to move beyond this throw stuff at the wall approach and missed deadlines are ok if the prices are low enough mentality. The big three have consumer trust and that is very important when you hit record.
Bassman2003
Veteran
It is different for every user but I do not want a camera that realistically tops out at ISO 800 for a clean image (Ursa Mini). What if you want to use higher frame rates? With a high shutter speed you need some strong ISO performance to help make up the difference.