Black Magic PocketHD and 4K production camera

snowblindfilm said:
People choose my services not because of the cost, but because they like my work. If people just care about the cost, it is not a good match. They will also look for a cheaper car mechanic, cheaper restaurant or other cheaper services. I offer a level of value- people like it or not. If not- move on- open a space for someone else. And I don't let them dictate what equipment I use. You don't go to a car mechanic and tell them what wrenches to use. I don't see why it should be different. And I choose a car mechanic based upon quality. A lot of times the cheapest quote did not get the job done. I present to to client exactly in these terms.
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LOL. So you're telling me your bid has never been turned down? I've been shooting images for 25 years. I've lost just as many bids as I've had signed. Usually it came down to cost. Now, in this day and age shooters are a dime a dozen. Back in the day shooting film was a bit different (you HAD to know film, filtration, processing). Like I keep saying. There is a wide range of what people are shooting and bidding on.

SO I just googled Snowblind film. Got 3 results. Care to share which one is right?
 
snowblindfilm said:
People choose my services not because of the cost, but because they like my work. If people just care about the cost, it is not a good match. They will also look for a cheaper car mechanic, cheaper restaurant or other cheaper services. I offer a level of value- people like it or not. If not- move on- open a space for someone else. And I don't let them dictate what equipment I use. You don't go to a car mechanic and tell them what wrenches to use. I don't see why it should be different. And I choose a car mechanic based upon quality. A lot of times the cheapest quote did not get the job done. I present to to client exactly in these terms.
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But it's rarely exclusively a cost versus quality argument. I agree, a client who's only concerned with costs wouldn't be a great fit for me, but at the same time, they often don't have unlimited budgets either. And there is an abundance of talent where I am. Dustylense and Robert are right... all things being equal, what practical advantage does a higher bitrate codec offer the client? Yes I know the answer from a technical standpoint, but there is a law of diminishing return here. When I shoot 15 doctor bios for a medical provider and all the b-roll that goes with it that's only going on Youtube, I can't really justify shooting Raw... or even Prores or DNxHD... over AVCHD. From the client's perspective, there isn't really any sort of advantage considering the end product, so why should they pay for it?

[EDIT] And again, I'm talking about my clients. Your mileage will vary. Like Dustylense said, there are a wide range of things out there being bid on and shot.
 
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visugeek said:
Two things about the BMCC, first it's 13 stops of DR instead of 12 on the BMPC, that may be important to some folks, second, the RAW is uncompressed while the RAW on the 4k is compressed.
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No, the pocket camera has 13 stops of dynamic range (source: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/techspecs)

And, it will do compressed raw, like the 4k model (source: http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/20...the-bmcc-and-does-a-4k-upsize-of-the-orginal/):
Currently the prototype camera I have records only in ProRes 422 @ 10 bit, just like the BMCC. The plan is to add a NEW compressed RAW implementation of DNG. The spec allows for this be lossless (not lossy) and at 1.5:1 – 1.2-:1.
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And a quick summary of how the pocket camera compares with the first/previous/old BMCC...
Basically we have a greatly shrunken version of the BMCC with the same proven sensor DR and IQ that records 1920 instead of 2.5K to SD cards in the same compressed codec of ProRes and in a new compressed version of RAW DNG. Oh yeah…and it’s going to cost one thousand bucks.
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I find it strange that people are pre-ordering the BMC4k without seeing a single frame grab off the camera itself. Not a lick of footage, no frame grab, just blind faith... Am I the only one?
 
dustylense said:
I find it strange that people are pre-ordering the BMC4k without seeing a single frame grab off the camera itself. Not a lick of footage, no frame grab, just blind faith... Am I the only one?
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Here's why I pre-ordered:

1. Blackmagic Design chose a pretty good sensor for the 2.5K one. I trust that they wouldn't want to destroy their brand by choosing the worst sensor on earth for the 4K one.

2. The Red One has pretty bad color and we've been able to get around that to a certain extent with clever grading.

3. Global shutter is a HUGE advantage for me as a VFX artist. Worth a loss in sensitivity and dynamic range.

4. I want to encourage them.

5. You can see from the Vimeo footage at Blackmagic's booth that it obviously works and the preview on the screen doesn't look awful.

6. I hope to see it at Cinegear in person in May so I'll get a chance to try before I buy.

7. I can always cancel my order.

8. Has anyone else announced anything nearly as promising for a price anywhere close?

9. Yes I do think that a lot of people would likely be better served by buying a C100 or whatever... but this happens to be more interesting for my personal needs.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
could this bring this back to the BMD cameras?

eoshd has just near-confirmed it, and I was going to do the same: the sensor in the BMC-4K is 99.99% percent sure the cmosis CMV12000

It matches the size and resolution and global shutter and DR issues and everything I've read about the BMC-4K. The only thing that it didn't match was the active area cited by John Brawley here: http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/20...the-bmcc-and-does-a-4k-upsize-of-the-orginal/
As somebody on the eoshd forums noticed (http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic...agic-4k-sensor-same-supplier-as-leica-m-cmos/), the active area he cites is exactly what the CMV12000 would give you if you were shooting 3840x2160.

So, unless somebody in the knowledge says otherwise, this is the CMV12000.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

The CMV12000 is a damn good sensor. With some damn awful downsides.

It has great color, it is 4K, and it is very, very sharp; sharper than a 5K still from my NEX-5N: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...use-it&p=1986258428&viewfull=1#post1986258428
It can also do 90fps at full resolution, but the ASIC in the BMC-4K won't allow you to use that, the camera will only give you 30p.

The downsides:

* ISO: I only had one week to play with the sensor, but I couldn't get the analog gain to work properly. If BMD solved that issue, the camera may offer ISO 200-400-800. If it is a sensor issue, it will be only ISO 200. And those are my kind-of-optimistic numbers, it could be "100-200-400" and "only 100". Wait and see, but I think this camera will have to be exposed for basically as if it was shooting film.

* DR: cmosis claims 60db, which means 10 stops, but I ran my usual DR tests with it, and I came with just about 8 stops. With the same methodology that gives me 11.5 stops on the D800 or 11.3 with a T2i, which many people say is very optimistic. There are several HDR modes in the sensor, but they all have the same downside: they create motion artifacts in the highlights. If they're recording 4K, I guess BMD went for the same method I was planning to use: piecewise linear exposure. This method eats part of the sensor's DR (e.g. one stop) and expands it with one or two shorter exposures. So, instead of 8 stops at 1/50s shutter, you can get 7 stops at 1/50s, plus, say another 5 stops at up to 1/1600s. Areas of the image exposed on this extended DR will show no motion blur at all, and may be subject to things like flicker, etc. It is basically like RED's HDRx, but without all the workflow issues (bitrate is not doubled, and there's no need to mix two streams in post). This means that you don't want to use this expanded DR to record your main subject: you want to use your regular 7 stops for your subject, and you'll have 5 extra stops of headroom in the highlights. Don't try to push up the shadows, though: there's nothing there. Again: this camera will have to have to be exposed for basically as if it was shooting film.


On the plus side, BMD may have found workarounds for these issues, they surely have much better engineers than me! :)
(I'm also designing a camera based on this sensor; I'd rate my chance of success at around 5%; mine would be more expensive, but it would do 90fps and record CineForm RAW, so I think I still have a market in the very unlikely event that I succeed...)
 
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bruceallen said:
8. Has anyone else announced anything nearly as promising for a price anywhere close?
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Nope. I paid +$32k for the F55 and would say its about the closest thing in terms of GS and frame size. Sure there are still differences but in the right hands....


Hail BMD. Good luck RED.
 
Yeah but Bruce, you are a different story and a much different league than most preordering. I get the price factor. I get the V1 BMC (which I had). I can only hope it works (input #5). Still though, most of us fell in love with the BMCv1 because there was footage to view.

This just goes along with what "I" have been thinking that past 3 days. That is that BMD is jumping the gun to create buzz and win Diamond Awards. I'm all for BMD pushing the boundaries releasing these cameras at such price. But let's not forget that they are still having issues getting V1 out the door. Now they have to tackle 2 more cameras to ship on top of the two cameras they have trouble shipping (where is the MFT???).

I suppose I just look at all purchases be it a camera or a scrim as a business decision. I don't put deposits down on a car that has never been seen on the road driving....

EosHd think the 4k sensor is the same one packed in the Leica M.
 
Plus they should give those waiting for the 2.5k camera still the option to pay the grand more to upgrade to the 4k camera... and get first shot when they come off the line...
 
GaryinCalifornia said:
Plus they should give those waiting for the 2.5k camera still the option to pay the grand more to upgrade to the 4k camera... and get first shot when they come off the line...
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Highly doubt that is going to happen as it would just create another logistical issue of who is who.
I bought a BMC of a user offloading it all the while having a preorder from the April '12 announcement. 2 days ago I got an e-mail from the distributor that I preordered with saying my number finally came up. A year later.....
 
Leica M has about 12 stops with 200-6400 iso. So, if it is the same sensor Leica M uses, why would it have only 8 or 10 stops and why would it be limited to iso 200 or 400? Am I misunderstanding something here?
 
Samuel H said:
The CMV12000 is a damn good sensor. With some damn awful downsides.
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Samuel - thank you so much for the real-world experience with the CMV12000 sensor. I also suspect the 4K BMCC cam uses that.

I was in touch with a couple of machine vision manufacturers RE getting a device using that sensor. They all seemed to be around $7000 though! Of course, you do get frame sync / genlock and 150fps ability. And 4K x 3K which is useful for computational photography... or anamorphic lenses... etc. I'm not totally keen on spending $7000 on a machine vision camera when I'm sure we'll have 60p 4K consumer cameras from Sony etc pretty soon for cheap. And Scarlets with the Dragon sensor (which may be excellent) will likely be cheap too. I'm guessing that they will sell for like $15K or less.

Anyway... fascinating insights, man! Thank you so much. Does anyone have any sample footage? And let me know if you can recommend a good machine vision cam using that sensor for less than $7000. Or heck... if there is a better sensor out there. All of this makes you really appreciate that little Sony-based Point Grey Flea cam which can shoot > 3K for under $1000!

dustylense said:
Yeah but Bruce, you are a different story and a much different league than most preordering. I get the price factor. I get the V1 BMC (which I had). I can only hope it works (input #5). Still though, most of us fell in love with the BMCv1 because there was footage to view.

This just goes along with what "I" have been thinking that past 3 days. That is that BMD is jumping the gun to create buzz and win Diamond Awards. I'm all for BMD pushing the boundaries releasing these cameras at such price. But let's not forget that they are still having issues getting V1 out the door. Now they have to tackle 2 more cameras to ship on top of the two cameras they have trouble shipping (where is the MFT???).
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I agree 100%. My 2c is that the only reason that BMD might possibly actually be able to make July is because they have all of those camera bodies with mounts etc already built. They were just waiting to put the chips in. So now they just put in a different chip and circuit board.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
dustylense said:
2 days ago I got an e-mail from the distributor that I preordered with saying my number finally came up. A year later.....
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I love how people bend the truth and change facts. The fact of the matter is: original release date was for end of June 2012, but in May was moved to July, so you are getting your camera with an 7-8 months delay.
 
dustylense said:
Lets just say that I shot a corporate video destined for web and I went with a combo of raw and prores (maybe 70/30) and it took 2.5 TB's to archive the work. Prores 4k will be just as large as shooting RAW on 2.5k. So yes, data storage comes into play greatly when considering these cameras.
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A whopping $135 to save your footage.......
http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Barra...UTF8&qid=1365538136&sr=1-1&keywords=3tb+drive

Depending on the amount you earned for the project which would be in the thousands I would say this is nothing..... Now if you earn less, than you use another option. Or you shoot 1080p pro res and make this a NON ISSUE.
 
snowblindfilm said:
People choose my services not because of the cost, but because they like my work. If people just care about the cost, it is not a good match. They will also look for a cheaper car mechanic, cheaper restaurant or other cheaper services. I offer a level of value- people like it or not. If not- move on- open a space for someone else. And I don't let them dictate what equipment I use. You don't go to a car mechanic and tell them what wrenches to use. I don't see why it should be different. And I choose a car mechanic based upon quality. A lot of times the cheapest quote did not get the job done. I present to to client exactly in these terms.
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+1000

I shoot on what I want for the job....... We Shot $20K+ videos on a GH2 and $5K videos on a Red..... It all depends. I'm at a point though where I am going to be using the BMCCC shooting in the format I want. if I am doing corporate work earning thousands of dollars $400 is nothing for backup. If I am being outbid by someone with a 5d that's cool, I have a GH3 for lower cost shooting.

At the end talent reigns supreme, and people will pay you what you ask if you're good at what you do.
 
dustylense said:
exactly. I've bid on many jobs only to lose to some guy shooting on a much inferior camera. Clients look at bottom line item costs and take that into consideration greatly. Questions like "Why is your archiving fee so expensive?" You can explain it all you want over the phone. But do this, go talk to your Uncle or somebody and start telling them about bit rates and compression and they will look at you with that dazed expression. You have to expect that there are many potential clients with that very same mentality. Now if you are bidding on a BMW spot, you might get more understanding of these costs. But like I said, there are all sorts of things to film at all levels. Not everything in the world is shot in 4k or even on Alexa.
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Everyone hates being railroaded into expensive choices they don't understand, including you. So you need to provide your customer with at least two options and let them choose. Option 1 is expensive high reliability archiving of highest quality raw footage. Option 2 is inexpensive archiving of low quality footage, where you archive the deliverable or an mpeg4 conversion of your raw footage.
 
dustylense said:
I find it strange that people are pre-ordering the BMC4k without seeing a single frame grab off the camera itself. Not a lick of footage, no frame grab, just blind faith... Am I the only one?
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I preordered one, based on the fact that BMD seem like an honest bunch of enthusiasts that have a long list of successful video based products behind them. I like their business model (what they have done with Resolve for instance), and while I was reticent to buy a BMC2K (because of the sensor size and the fact that it was their first camera) I reckon they have learned a bit from that experience and will have improved the 2nd generation product.

A lot of early adopters put their faith in RED when they first started preordering the Red One (long before they had anything real to show) and it worked out for them in the end. They put down sizable deposits too.

In contrast, the price of the BMC4K is peanuts (and the deposit is just a few hundred bucks and refundable) - so I figure I am somewhere close to the front of the line, and if it drags on too long I'll cancel.

If the camera is an absolute stinker, well I 'll try to sell it and make a loss - but at $4,000 its not going to be much of a loss - maybe a grand or two in the hole. At the very least it'll be an interesting first foray into the world of 4K workflows and all the baggage that comes along with it - so I'll learn something along the way.

Thats my reasoning.
 
Tzedekh said:
Red announced the 3K Scarlet five years ago. And how long did it take them to deliver it? That's right. They never did and never will. Even the Epic was more than two years late.
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The difference is, they never charged anyone's credit card for one in advance for one via B&H.
 
J.F.R. said:
+1000

I shoot on what I want for the job....... We Shot $20K+ videos on a GH2 and $5K videos on a Red..... It all depends. I'm at a point though where I am going to be using the BMCCC shooting in the format I want. if I am doing corporate work earning thousands of dollars $400 is nothing for backup. If I am being outbid by someone with a 5d that's cool, I have a GH3 for lower cost shooting.

At the end talent reigns supreme, and people will pay you what you ask if you're good at what you do.
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Tell that to this guy (shot on BMC and shot in RAW). https://vimeo.com/63493930
 
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