Biggest Challenge with DSLRs

R

ronin99

Active member
The biggest challenge of shooting with DSLRs is focus, even if you're not shooting wide open it can still be challenging.

I was wondering how others are dealing with it, I know it takes practice to nail focus and with a live event, and the pressure is on since you may only get one shot of it. Being able to have focus peaking or something like that as you record would help.

There's the Zacuto-Z finder, but are there other options out there, what do you like?
 
I try and avoid DSLR for events now and take a proper video camera. That said, I used to do lots of events on DSLR. I found using auto focus before recording on each frame worked pretty well on the 5D Mark III, friends used the magic lantern peaking, I never did but wish I had tried it. A friend with a 70D finds it very easy as he can just use the touch screen on faces to focus as he moves around.
 
Depends upon what type of event you are filming. DSLRs have horrible ergonomics for anything outside of cinematic style shooting. You need three arms or a lot of support gear. Outside of inferior display feedback for focus. A loupe helps as you can press the camera against your face and have a viewfinder type experience. But I agree about using a normal video camera if you do not need shallow DOF.
 
ronin99 said:
The biggest challenge of shooting with DSLRs is focus, even if you're not shooting wide open it can still be challenging.

I was wondering how others are dealing with it, I know it takes practice to nail focus and with a live event, and the pressure is on since you may only get one shot of it. Being able to have focus peaking or something like that as you record would help.

There's the Zacuto-Z finder, but are there other options out there, what do you like?
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I think the future of dslr is PDAF technology (by PDAF I mean on-sensor phase detection). There isn't a FF sensor yet that has 80% coverage of PDAF but we are getting close.

The 7D Mark II or 70D, which are APS-C, have 80% PDAF coverage and it works very great for focus tracking. And you can disable it if you want to get super creative with manual focus. You can even combine servo with manual focus by holding the AF-HOLD button to temporarily disable the servo AF. Sony also has PDAF in the A6000, A5100, A7, A7II, A7RII.

Note that there are a few modes for PDAF focusing:
- Focus Tracking: Object vs Face
-> Canon has a more accurate face tracking for a single face (cannot identify more than one face at a time, so you cannot switch between faces), BUT this is a dedicated mode only so you cannot toggle this mode while recording.
-> Sony has better human-machine interaction because you can toggle face tracking WHILE recording AND is button ASSIGNABLE!!! With Canon you need to stop recording then go into the menu to toggle face tracking.
-> Sony's face tracking can identify more than one face at a time and will put boxes around each of them. I however have yet figured out how to choose which face to focus on. Maybe I haven't used it enough as I only rented a Sony mirrorless with PDAF twice.
- Auto Servo Focus: The system continually drives focus based on what the focus box is positioned on within the frame
- Manual Servo Focus: The system will not continually drive focus on its own. It needs you to press the [FOCUS-ON] button for it to drive focus. This method minimizes camera shake as you are not grabbing the physical focus ring on the lens.

Beyond these there are cons with PDAF technology as it stands today, although in the future I would expect these cons to be corrected or improved upon:
- I've tried both Canon and Sony and both seem to have issues with horizontal line patterns. It cannot drive focus decisively and will hunt or even default to drive the lens out of focus.
- Requires light to nail focus the first time. Darker rooms hinder the PDAF.
- Manual Servo Focus on Sony E-Mount cameras start with phase detection to drive the lens decisively and smoothly then it finishes it with contrast detection which gives a bit of hunting. Canon does not do this and gives a more pleasing focus drive when doing Manual Servo Focus.
- Manual Servo Focus at the moment drives the focus almost instantly and we cannot adjust the speed in which focus is racked. Focus speed is only adjustable in the auto modes. On the Sony mirrorless and the 70D you can hack this limitation by using the Auto Servo toggle button. The 7D Mark II lacks a dedicated button for this feature.
- Sony mirrorless are limited to F6.3 or wider.
- Sony mirrorless require a native E-Mount with auto-focus in order to make the PDAF technology run the best (the A7RII might change this limitation). The downside is that these lenses are HORRIBLE for manual focus, so if you switch to manual focus, your creativity will suffer.
- No PDAF camera that is considered pro has a touch screen at the moment, which hinders the creative use of this technology. A touchscreen would be very empowering as you can tap where you want focus. Currently the only cameras with touchscreen + PDAF are the Sony A6000 (overheats, no flat picture profile, no mic input), Sony A5100 (overheats, no flat picture profile, no mic input, anemic on assignable buttons, moire) and the 70D (moires, gets hot, no clean hdmi out, touch screen blanks out when using hdmi out, horrible rolling shutter skew). None of these can be considered for professional work in my opinion, which is a shame.
 
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Ever since I replaced my Canon 5DII with the Sony A7s, I've been able to shoot at higher F-stops with less noise due to being able to push the ISO, which has resulted in less unnecessarily-shallow DOF. More stuff is in focus, thus approximating distance on the lens results in far less errors in live situations.
 
I came from the film world. So manual focusing was all there ever was. You really do get used to it very quickly when it's all there is.

When auto-focus lenses first came along they were not very accurate. Most got you "in the ballpark" but benefited from a manual "fine tuning" of the focus by hand.

Now they work very well GENERALLY, but I instinctively only trusted using auto focusing in ways that I was sure were going to work. You can't just "use" auto-focus like it's some miracle that's going to get what YOU want in focus.

That said - the video mode auto focus of some of the newer DSLRs like some of the Sonys and the Samsung NX1 is more sophisticated than ever, and if you LEARN how to properly OPERATE those auto-focus systems they can do a lot for you.
 
Switching from DSLR to a video camera just for the sake of avoiding shallow DOF is equivalent to treating/using the video camera as a proper surveillance camera. A surveillance camera is supposed to (ideally) have an infinity DOF and be operable even by a robot. However, that is exactly opposite to the reason why cinematographers (like Vincent Laforet) picked 5D2 and/or 7D for shooting video in the first place. Treating/using a video camera like a surveillance camera loses "film look".


(Continued from above)
There are full featured movies like Act of Valor and documentaries like Hell and Back Again that are shot completely on DSLR cameras like 5D Mark II. And Escape from Tomorrow looks and feels very much like an old film shot on old video cameras, but it was actually shot on two 5D2 and one ID4 in a guerrilla style. These are some proof that something like 5D II is fully capable of covering live events, even in life-threatening and/or one-shot-only situations, despite its ergonomics is designed more for still and hence may feel awkward for shooting video.

ronin99 said:
The biggest challenge of shooting with DSLRs is focus, even if you're not shooting wide open it can still be challenging.

I was wondering how others are dealing with it, I know it takes practice to nail focus and with a live event, and the pressure is on since you may only get one shot of it. Being able to have focus peaking or something like that as you record would help.
Click to expand...

The biggest challenge is to resist the temptation to give up on the pursuit for film look by going back to point-n-shooting a camera in a surveillance camera style. One of the film look requirements is to drive viewer attention, i.e., force viewer's eyes to move the way intended. An easiest method is by composition, and a harder method is by rack focus, by camera movement, by proper lighting, etc. Don't give up on that; if you do, you're giving up on film look. To create a film lock, the shooter has to actively make a certain effort or efforts, instead of just doing robotic point-n-shoot with (near) infinity DOF.


ronin99 said:
There's the Zacuto-Z finder, but are there other options out there, what do you like?
Click to expand...

A Z finder is very useful when shooting handheld, but it's not always needed.
Certain other things also help and can be (far) more important for achieving desired focus:

Equipment: stabilizer (such as Glidecam), follow focus, HDMI monitor, magic lantern, etc.
Techniques: estimate and preset focal distance, take advantage of hyperfocal distance, etc.
Knowledge: use the right lens for a given job the right way, understand how DOF is jointly determined by aperture, focal length, and subject distance and how it's influenced by sensor size, etc.
Practice: learn to keep hands steady & swift when doing MF, learn to keep subject in focus while moving/flying the camera, etc.
AF: it isn't a replacement for MF at all, is never required, but can greatly help when it can. For example, it's useful with motor-driven lenses for racking focus without having to manually turn the lens.

All the above can help, and nothing alone is enough.
In the end, what really matters is a decent DSLR system being operated by a pair of experienced hands.




Summary of the points made:
- For shooting video with DSLR, what really matters is the pursuit for a film look. It's also the biggest challenge.
- Switching to "video cameras" in facing the challenge is nothing but giving up on that pursuit in favor of effortless surveillance style point-n-shooting
- DSLR such as 5D Mark II are, if used properly, good enough for covering live events and one-time shots
- The pursuit for a film look requires knowledge, experiences, an amount of efforts proportional to final extent of success, and proper gear that makes job easier.
 
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•Stop down.

•Use a smaller sensor camera. M43 provides more than enough DOF control, as does APSC. Full Frame is the current trendiness, IMO it is pretty crazy to use in the day in and day out. While it is possible to use a DSLR for event work- unless there are no other options, it's an exercise in masochism.
 
AF is also heavily dependent on the processing power inside the camera and, with each generation of products, the AF gets better and better as the processing power goes up a notch. A7R MK II and C300 MK II are not on the store shelves yet but should have a superior AF compared to the MK I versions of the same models. At some point - and it's likely to be here sooner rather than later - a camera operator will be able to pick his AF subject and program anything that a manual puller could do and do it faster - or slower, as desired - and with fewer errors to boot.
 
DLD said:
AF is also heavily dependent on the processing power inside the camera and, with each generation of products, the AF gets better and better as the processing power goes up a notch. A7R MK II and C300 MK II are not on the store shelves yet but should have a superior AF compared to the MK I versions of the same models. At some point - and it's likely to be here sooner rather than later - a camera operator will be able to pick his AF subject and program anything that a manual puller could do and do it faster - or slower, as desired - and with fewer errors to boot.
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You can do that with some follow focus controllers, so as you say, it is just a matter of time and processing power before internal AF will do this at the press of a button. And it will probably be adaptive so if the actor doesn't hit the exact same mark, it will adjust by itself to nail focus each time. (or possibly go off on its own and pick the farthest thing from correct like sometimes happens)
 
I try to choose the camera for a project based on what I want the shots to look like, and the trade-offs of the situation. I generally choose my aperture for the DOF that I want, and on a super-35 sensor at 70mm or so, F4 or 5.6 seems to be pretty often for me, as far as subject isolation and overall look goes. F4 on an 85mm is a fairly soft BG but you can keep a whole head in focus.

I've seen some amazing AF from the NX1, don't know if I'd trust it if it was a one-shot deal - but for those gigs I use a shoulder mount "video" camera. And I use manual focus for event style shooting, with a focus controller on the right grip and good peaking. For events, an all-in-one lens and focus, iris and zoom at my fingertips (and a for-real EVF and XLRs when needed) means I get all the shots. if we interview during the event, I'll try to use a DSLR and a recorder (and a silk and a reflector) but that's more up to the client - "will you allow setup time" basically.

To focus with a DSLR, at minimum you need a good loupe - a decent follow focus and rails help a lot (that Fotga is amazing for the bucks) and a decent monitor with a 1:1 button is huge (plenty of monitors I've used have useless peaking for DSLRs "wow, everything's in focus" when it's not). For studio gigs I try to bring a 22" HDTV on a roller stand for clients and for difficult focus. You can really tell what's up with a bigger screen.

You really need good flare control on your lens - too many wide shots I've attempted have started out a little too washed when using a big zoom, which can look soft and make focusing tough. Even a killer, pricey 2.8 zoom at 5.6 can get milky and veiled if you're not careful - dynamite for closeups, but you need to watch your matte box & flags. Wide primes (well, a 28mm is a "wide" lens but normal on super 35) seem to hold up better in a bright white setting.
 
Greg_E said:
You can do that with some follow focus controllers, so as you say, it is just a matter of time and processing power before internal AF will do this at the press of a button. And it will probably be adaptive so if the actor doesn't hit the exact same mark, it will adjust by itself to nail focus each time. (or possibly go off on its own and pick the farthest thing from correct like sometimes happens)
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Hitting the mark is nothing. How about following some guy - let's call him an actor, if you like - as he disappears behind a wall, then emerges on the other side of the said wall in a different portion of the frame and is still 100% perfectly in focus because the camera computer can distinguish him from the crowd of bystanders/extras. Right now, this can be done with either placing magnets on an actor or measuring the required distance with either a low powered laser or a sonar - and these systems cost a pretty penny, although the Red Rock Halo seems to be a decent buy at ~ $3,000 for the whole system - - but pretty soon a camera will just accept a summary of the subject sort of like a mini-histogram and keep him in focus until ordered not to do so. Samsung has already come up with its "predictive motion", which uses algorithms to time a baseball batter and so on but IMO, these individual heat profiles will be a lot simpler to execute because all a camera will need to do is to store its subject profile in memory rather than delete it when the subject moves out of the frame.
 
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DLD said:
Right now, this can be done with either placing magnets on an actor or measuring the required distance with either a low powered laser or a sonar - and these systems cost a pretty penny,
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This is an idea I've wondered about for a little while now - whether there can be some gadget designed to work alongside a camera and/or follow focus which allows the lens to track that object.

Sure, it's not going to give you the same level of control and the critical thinking/creativity/predictive skills of a human operator, but it would certainly be great in a lot of situations. I'm sure the technology is there to create some sort of dongle which continuously measures and communicates its distance to the camera, which in turn adjusts the focal distance. Of course for this to work with AF lenses - rather than via a follow focus - we have to rely on the camera manufacturers themselves rather than on a 3rd party developer.
 
As I recall, the German laser based system was ~ $70,000 at the NAB'14. The Sonar based Red Rock Halo is about $3,000. The magnet based AF design is ... well, for some reasons, I can't find it at the moment - it was shown at the last two NAB's - but it's a non-line-of-sight system, which is a major departure from any and all systems. The magnet serves as an ID tag (it is worn much like a lav mic) and whoever wears that piece will be in focus (subject to a lens, etc.). IIRC, that setup ran about $15,000. plus accessories.

All third party solutions work on taking their signal and then converting it into a mechanical follow-focus.

As to the costs - Red Rock Halo run$ a lot less than other devices but ... LG3 and the new Asus selfie smartphone (available in pink and mauve) have a built-in laser auto focus working off a touch screen. That's about as point-and-shoot as one can get. How soon can we see it on larger sensor cameras? I assume, soon enough.

Edit - Found Andra (magnet based) off NAB'14

 
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hotchkiss said:
•Stop down.

•Use a smaller sensor camera.
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This^

When I have used DSLR to shoot live event footage, I tended to use the APSC sensor size 7D for more forgiving depth of field. With the 5DMKIII or the a7, there's enough sensitivity to stop down to an appropriate f stop. Trying to shoot event footage with a full frame sensor camera at anything near widest aperture is crazy. When I'm shooting event stuff with a wide lens, I tend to just use the distance scale on the lens to set focus as long as I'm at about f8 aperture. You could also just mark a follow focus with a range of maybe 3 distances (close as you'd get, middle, and far) and rely on depth of field to keep you in the focus range.
 
Depth of field vs format is not an on/off switch. It is a continuum: FF35,S35,MFT,1"/S16, 2/3",1/2",1/3",1/4".
Pick the right tool for the job.
IMO the middle of the range is the sweet spot for solo operator doc style event shooting. Nothing beats 1" or 2/3" camera with a fast, light, wide range cine zoom for efficient shooting with a full range of cinematic aesthetic options.
 
hotchkiss said:
•Stop down.

•Use a smaller sensor camera. M43 provides more than enough DOF control, as does APSC. Full Frame is the current trendiness, IMO it is pretty crazy to use in the day in and day out. While it is possible to use a DSLR for event work- unless there are no other options, it's an exercise in masochism.
Click to expand...

This. With full frame I'm stopping down to F4, 5.6 8 for documentary purposes.
 
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