Best shoes for gimbal walk?

[Peter C.]

Yes slider is better for close-ups because the gimbal can't solve up/down side/side or forward/backward swaying of my arms.

But that's the nature of the beast of doing a continuous take. You're going to be on one rig the entire time (although I've thought about having a monopod or light stand on the bottom of my gimbal or ready to connect when I set down for a close-up. But ultimately I think it would cause more problems than it would solve, so I'm just focusing on maximizing stability on the gimbal.)

This is the recent video I shot where I finally feel like I can adequately magnify details on this set-up due to zooming into 24mm + using 2x clear image zoom. The only problem is that zooming the lens on my Ronin-S with focus motor is a bit rough and I wish I could find a zoom rocker to work with it. I applied a bit of stabilization throughout. There are a few edits where I had to fix stops/starts of specialists talking or where I transition between different types/amounts of stabilization, but it's supposed to FEEL like a live shot and the client was very pleased - https://vimeo.com/501597713/a920698c57

Nice job. Is it difficult to use the camera/gimbal shooting vertically? Do you have a vest or are you holding the gimbal the entire time? I don't think I'd like holding a gimbal for more than a couple of minutes. Good staying out of the reflective items. That motorized lens controller works well for that type of work because it allows those nice detail closeups while being able to pull back wide for the walk and talks. High quality video without noise.

 

[ahalpert]

Thanks, Peter. I wish we had time to rehearse so I actually knew what to shoot next, but it's not in the cards.

I mount the camera to an L bracket and mount the bracket to the Ronin normally. It's a little annoying but just an extra step, really. Operating it is identical to normal. And my external monitor is mounted vertically as well.

I'm holding the gimbal the whole time. I like operating the gimbal, but it does get tiring. I just switched from using the samyang 18 (0.32 lb) for these shoots to using the sony 12-24 f/4 (1.24 lbs) and I can definitely feel the difference after an hour. Luckily, we didn't shoot much longer than that. Another hour of shooting and I'd be quavering from muscle fatigue, but I suppose I could work up to it.

Yeah I'm using the focus motor to zoom from 12-24 and a wired sony remote control to clear image zoom 2x. I just need to get smoother zooms from the focus motor but I have some ideas. The clear image zoom control works perfectly smoothly.

 

[laverdir]

Blast from the past.

 

[Imamacuser]

Maybe I could improve my Steadicam operation if I stopped wearing Clogs.

 

[cyvideo]

Best Steadicam op I knew, ex Olympic skater and pro ballet dancer would indoors go bare foot on tiled, timber and carpeted surfaces. Outdoors he would normally use the original style Red Indian, if I can use the expression without offense very thin soled moccasins. One rough uneven surfaces he would use super soft sole loafers. He felt it essential to have what he called it a very tactile contact with what was underfoot to get the best feedback to guide his balance and movement. Whatever, it was smoothness personified just to watch him operate. Re the resultant Steadicam footage it was some of the best I've ever seen for fluid gliding motion.

Chris Young

 

[CharlesPapert]

Best Steadicam op I knew, ex Olympic skater and pro ballet dancer would indoors go bare foot on tiled, timber and carpeted surfaces. Outdoors he would normally use the original style Red Indian, if I can use the expression without offense very thin soled moccasins. One rough uneven surfaces he would use super soft sole loafers. He felt it essential to have what he called it a very tactile contact with what was underfoot to get the best feedback to guide his balance and movement. Whatever, it was smoothness personified just to watch him operate. Re the resultant Steadicam footage it was some of the best I've ever seen for fluid gliding motion.

Chris Young

Who was that, Chris?

Not to discredit his work, but I have seen many examples of perfectly smooth Steadicam operation without resorting to that type of footwear. My concern is that adding 60 lbs onto your body without providing additional support to the feet may be unncessarily overstressing the body mechanics.

Again this is a very non-specific judgement, but over the many years of instructing and watching other operators, I can't always draw a direct line between their perceived form and the resulting footage. After a certain point, the Steadicam itself takes over in terms of the body isolation aspect. Uniformity of speed for slow moving shots is absolutely a measurement of the operator's balance and form, but I dare say I got pretty good at that myself using standard shoes (sometimes even hiking boots on terrain).

 

[ahalpert]

The only scenario I really value delicate footwork; perfect balance, and tactile feedback is for close-up work with careful pivoting, needing to halt mid-stride or slowly reverse the direction of my steps. I'm using Lems zero drop sole shoes for this purpose and I love them. I also enjoy them for sliding quickly across a smooth floor.

but I'm handholding a 10-lb ronin-s mirrorless camera rig. Different story than a proper steadicam and a proper camera

I totally agree that on uneven terrain they're not a great choice. You're better off with something like hiking boots. Im also not typically doing close-up work and careful pivoting outdoors. (I mean, even a close-up of a person is usually nowhere near the magnification I use for artwork details).

 

[cyvideo]

Who was that, Chris?

A Polish guy named Artur "Art" Kade was a political immigrant from Poland. I don't know how he actually got into the video side of things initially but he came to me when I was training a couple of guys on Steadicam here in Australia. I had never seen anyone who seemed to be a 'natural' within an hour of putting a Steadicam on like this guy. On his second day, he came in with ballet shoes. That's when I found out about his past on ice and ballet in Poland. He also told me that most of the time at home both indoors and outdoors he never wore shoes as that blocked his feedback with the environment. Make of that as you may but for sure I have seen good well-respected ops who could never come as close to moving off or coming to a stop or changing direction or side-stepping up and down layers of staging or rocky ground as smoothly and effortlessly as this guy "Art" Kade. And run? Never saw anyone anywhere who could run with a Steadi like this guy. He also delivered some of the best footage I've seen shot handheld from skis and snowboard long before we had gimbals. After all the political turmoils settled in Europe he went back to Poland. Though I'm still in touch with his ex-wife and now adult kids who remained in Aussie. They tell me he has left the video industry altogether.

Chris Young

 

[CharlesPapert]

Interesting story, Chris. Especially that he left the industry. I definitely saw some raw talent in the rig when I was teaching as well.

While footwork is a very significant part of handheld work, I find it significantly less so for Steadicam in that the rig creates much of the isolation (assuming a well-performing arm). I know of one operator in particular who doesn't feel it necessary to walk any differently with a rig on and yet his shots are comparably smooth to anyone else's. What becomes critical (even more so with his style) is the ability to isolate the arms from the lower half of the body, so the pumping action of their walk doesn't translate into the sled via the hands. At workshops when people were having trouble with their footsteps showing up in shots, I would have them do a pass with their hands off the sled and we'd usually see a marked improvement in smoothness. There were certain operators who came from a dance background and they looked very elegant in their body movements, but yet their footage did not necessarily reflect this simply because a much larger percentage of the nuance of operating comes from the design center of the brain and the five fingers manipulating the post vs the rest of the body.

There was a movement within younger operators some fifteen years ago towards the Five Fingers style of footwear, but looking back I can't say that this resulted in notably smoother results all around. There are some wonderful operators who go all but barefoot, and others that use more standard footwear and are similarly wonderful, so it is obviously a matter of personal preference. There were a few times that I was requested to go shoeless because of location sensitivities (protecting a floor) and I found my balance with the rig entirely compromised when I gave it a try, so that didn't work for me.

 

[Run&Gun]

I have a good friend that is a Steadicam op and instructs at a lot of the workshops. I’ve taken one the workshops that he runs a couple of times and I always found it a little ironic that some of the instructors would always say to walk normally and let the arm do it’s job, but almost all of them always walked differently when shooting in the rig.

 

[CharlesPapert]

I have a good friend that is a Steadicam op and instructs at a lot of the workshops. I’ve taken one the workshops that he runs a couple of times and I always found it a little ironic that some of the instructors would always say to walk normally and let the arm do it’s job, but almost all of them always walked differently when shooting in the rig.

Ha, well possibly guilty as charged. It is a little complicated to be able to articulate one's methodology as it is not always a conscious thing. There were times when I was teaching Steadicam where the best way for me to respond to a student's question was to don the rig and have them watch me and tell ME what I was doing!

The truth probably lies somewhere inbetween. One shouldn't walk completely normally, there are definite things to be concerned with such as placing one foot behind the other when backpedaling (because this pulls the camera in a straight line vs the possibility of a slight left to right movement with each footstep), and when moving very slowly it is more critical to round off your steps to keep the rig's motion as uniform in speed as possible. However while neither of those fall into "normal" walking cadences, they aren't specifically indicating that one must attempt to avoid vertical displacement which is more typical of handheld shooting, the classic knees-bent gliding shuffle. Most Steadicam operators feel that this is using up one's physical resources unnecessarily as the arm will manage that. That said: a lesser brand Steadicam style arm or gimbal support that isn't aces at isolating in the Z axis will be improved significantly when adopting those sort of techniques to one degree or another. My first 8 years of Steadicam ownership was with the original 70's era arm which I found needed some help--once I moved up to the then brand new PRO arm, I started to get "lazier" about my walking form because the arm worked that much better. Below is a clip from '96 with the old arm and some careful walking form (but note the tucking of feet into a straight line, again not the same as a walk designed to absorb shock).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2h9snph7sj64x4/secret clip copy.mov?dl=0

 

[Guest]

I had a rig that was very reactive, and as a result it definitely altered the way I walked. Then I would demo a full sized rig from Tiffen and get a different feel, and then a GPI Pro rig, and get yet a different feel.

I felt in the GPI, I had the most freedom of walking style, but the vest was worn high up and not connected to the hips, so it require a much stronger torso. The kind of muscles that take a year or two of building.

The Tiffen Rigs had a nice feel and more weight went to the hips, but that had good arms and nice isolation, despite being so joined the the hip.

I tried a rear mounted vest once on a Trinity, and all I remember was thinking how awful it felt on my knees having all that weight.

Have the thin shoes, and really liked those for slow and delicate movements where balance feedback was more crucial. Then I liked softer thicker soles for longer days.

 

[ahalpert]

Do people have any knowledge and opinion of the steadimate-s with aero 15? I looked at footage and reviews of people using that set-up with a ronin-s a year or two ago and came to the conclusion that it didn't do much to help with the z-axis and was primarily useful for weight redistribution, which I don't need. But maybe the operators I watched weren't using the rig to its full potential? I'm loath to diminish the versatility and simplicity of my current set-up if it doesn't pay dividends in stability

 

[Run&Gun]

I bought an S in 2020 to try out with my original Ronin S and I kind of came to the conclusion that it’s really only useful for carrying the weight on longer shoots(i.e: long walk ‘n talks). Other than that, it actually kind of just hinders (limits) the movements you could do otherwise(big height changes, big sweepers, etc.). Even Tiffen’s own videos weren’t impressive. But part of that is the Ronin itself. I mean, it’s still NOT a Steadicam.

 

[ahalpert]

I know a few Steadicam operators who prefer those barefoot type shoes, I always thought it a little counterintuitive myself because of the added load on the body requiring more support/cushioning (running is a different story, since no added load). I also consider the footwork different between handheld and Steadicam where the former has a more direct affect on the frame--gimbal work can fall into either category depending on whether an isolating bodymount is being used.

In my Steadicam career I started out with New Balance sneakers for Steadicam and handheld, and later went to hightops for Steadicam to protect my ankles (and indeed, never had a rollover). Even ten years out of the rig, when watching rehearsals of a walk-and-talk I still tend to backpedal like I'm wearing a Steadicam, much to my operators amusement (one foot going behind the other to maintain a straight line).

Here's some discussion on this from a while back. Most of the talk moved to the Facebook Steadicam group years ago but you have to be a member to read.
https://steadicamforum.com/index.ph...ller=topic&id=4868&tab=comments#comment-24283

Hey Charles, what do you think is the best type of New Balance shoe for support under a heavy load - walking, running, trail, basketball?

I really enjoy my Lems zero drop shoes (which are barefoot-esque in that there's very little sole between your foot and the ground, but don't have the articulated toe pockets of the Vibram Five Fingers. I used to wear the Five Fingers and loved them, but they look so strange.)

Like some in the thread you linked, I enjoy the barefoot-style shoes for delicate footwork. But lately I've been experiencing knee strain and I wonder if switching to something with cushioning would help. The problem with barefoot-style shoes is that they change the way you walk so that you'll come down less on your heel. This is a good thing. But if you're running around over hard terrain under a heavy load under time pressure, you may end up with the worst of both worlds--coming down hard on your heel without any cushion. I could be wrong about the source of my issue, but it's a theory.

Anyway, I ordered some New Balance walking shoes to try from Amazon (928v3 https://www.newbalance.com/pd/928v3/MW928V3-19761.html?dwvar_MW928V3-19761_style=MW928BK3) but then I went back to the thread you posted and I see that people are talking mostly about running shoes, trail shoes, even basketball shoes by New Balance. I would have thought that walking shoes were preferable unless, as some mentioned, they're experiencing overheating. (Of course, my Lems are well-ventilated, so maybe I should get another breathable sneaker... https://www.lemsshoes.com/products/mens-primal-2?variant=23307304763450)

 

[Andy9]

Size 8 and be there

 

[CharlesPapert]

Hey Charles, what do you think is the best type of New Balance shoe for support under a heavy load - walking, running, trail, basketball?

If they do actually bother to engineer shoes based on usage, one would expect trail shoes to be the most likely to support carrying a load to accommodate people carrying a pack. I did use trail and hiking shoes towards the end both for traction and support outside, switching to a more shoe for interiors where I was more likely to do the delicate footwork. I always found runners too narrow and not ideal for sideways scuttling and was concerned I'd roll an ankle.

I did go through a significant era of high-tops and medium-tops because of that ankle thing, such as seen below. At some point it was suggested to me that I may be actually weakening some of the muscles in that area with that practice, so I moved away from that. Honestly, it's all a bit fuzzy but thankfully the old pix help!

 

[rob norton]

Anyway, I ordered some New Balance walking shoes to try from Amazon (928v3 https://www.newbalance.com/pd/928v3/MW928V3-19761.html?dwvar_MW928V3-19761_style=MW928BK3) but then I went back to the thread you posted and I see that people are talking mostly about running shoes, trail shoes, even basketball shoes by New Balance. I would have thought that walking shoes were preferable unless, as some mentioned, they're experiencing overheating. (Of course, my Lems are well-ventilated, so maybe I should get another breathable sneaker... https://www.lemsshoes.com/products/mens-primal-2?variant=23307304763450)

I'm team new balance too. I bought lightweight hiking boots and have sprained my ankle a handful of times, to the point where I'd rather walk on uneven terrain with normal shoes if possible.

I did a 90 minute walk with 16kgs/35lbs in a backpack with new balances and could feel blisters forming on my feet, which is where hiking boots would've easily been issue free for sole protection.

They have hiking shoes now too, might be worth checking out if high ankle support isn't your thing.

 

[Peter C.]

Its going to come down to what feels comfortable for your feet and that will be different for every person.

 

[ahalpert]

I'm team new balance too. I bought lightweight hiking boots and have sprained my ankle a handful of times, to the point where I'd rather walk on uneven terrain with normal shoes if possible.

I did a 90 minute walk with 16kgs/35lbs in a backpack with new balances and could feel blisters forming on my feet, which is where hiking boots would've easily been issue free for sole protection.

They have hiking shoes now too, might be worth checking out if high ankle support isn't your thing.

Hmm I'm starting to wonder if I might be trading in one problem for a new set of problems. I don't worry about getting blisters now and my Lems Primal 2 are so comfortable that I don't feel relieved when I take them off. And they have low ankles but I don't worry about rolling my ankles. In the thread of steadicam op dicussion that Charles linked earlier, people were talking about how specific shoes they had weren't good for standing still. Or how you really needed to get the right insoles for them. And I'm like -- what??

Maybe the answer is just to take it easier on my knees. 95%+ of the shots I'm getting can be done in a healthy way. At my last wedding shoot, I sprinted across a stretch of sharp rocks to get ahead of the couple, but I didn't end up getting a good shot anyway. Then later that day, my knees hurt. Maybe I just need to take it easier.

Of course, it's also possible that newborn-induced fatigue is wearing me down, or that my problem is chasing my kids across our hard backyard soil in flip-flops. I've been wearing Lems Primal 2 for work and life for 2.5 years and never had a problem until earlier this month. (I have two pairs that are still in great condition although the soles are getting worn. Maybe I just need new soles, although they don't offer much cushioning to begin with.)

I've already got the New Balance walking shoes coming in, so I'll give those a try. But this line of inquiry has sort of reaffirmed my belief in minimalist/barefoot-style shoes. It's also suspicious that Charles doesn't even think there's a divergent design goal between different styles of New Balance shoes and that they have so many different models.

This is what the Lems Primal 2 looks like. Vivobarefoot may be better but they're more expensive and don't have a black friday sale and I love my Lems besides my potential knee problem.