best prime lense approximating 35mm????

J

jsauce

Active member
So I'm slowly building up my lens kit and today I encountered a small conundrum.
with the canon glass, it's tough to get anything good under 50mm. normally that wouldn't be a problem but because of the crop, a 50mm is really an 80mm and so on....
unfortunately, anything really sharp under 50mm becomes VERY expensive.

so what to do???

today (almost like a bizarre drug fix) i just had to have a prime, so i went with the canon es 1.4 50mm. i love the lens and i'll probably keep it, but its really more of a close up and portraiture lens.

So im trying to compliment it with something on the wider scale that also a sharp wide open prime. canon doesnt really make anything unless you want to spend over 1000.

I found the sigmas, a 24mm and a 20mm at 1.8 which would approximate a 34 or 38mm lens or something of that nature.

any experience with the sigmas????
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/217794-USA/Sigma_411101_Super_W_A_20mm_f_1_8.html
 
I like the Zeiss Primes and got the set, that I was using with a letus rig. Very nice lenses, great build quality and good value. I did just shell out for the Canon EF 16-35 f2.8 L series lens though. Gives me the wide angles in a zoom - 25mm equiv on the 7D. But as much for stills as for video. It arrives tomorrow, can't wait to shoot with it. By the way I like the skating shots on your test clip.
 
sorry i should clarify, best "prime lenses" that approximate and don't kill your budget.
right now i'm looking at the sigma macro 24mm 1.8 which with the crop becomes a 38mm

thoughts?
 
mickjones said:
I like the Zeiss Primes and got the set, that I was using with a letus rig. Very nice lenses, great build quality and good value. I did just shell out for the Canon EF 16-35 f2.8 L series lens though. Gives me the wide angles in a zoom - 25mm equiv on the 7D. But as much for stills as for video. It arrives tomorrow, can't wait to shoot with it. By the way I like the skating shots on your test clip.
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You won't be disappointed with the 16-35 Mick. It's an awesome lens. I shot with it over the weekend. Here's a few clips I was able to put together.

http://vimeo.com/6932309

jsauce, How much is your budget for lenses?
 
I haven't used the sigma 24 but I have used the 20... good underrated lens. Pretty sharp. You can find them on ebay for cheap too. The Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 is sweet but slower. And I'm finding that I love the Sigma 30mm- shot a party with it last friday and is really versatile.

Ash
www.iniosante.com
 
So does this mean you usually shoot photography or have gotten used to shooting video on the 5D?

Otherwise the crop factor should not matter to you at all.

In fact if you want the motion picture look, the crop factor of the 7D is near perfect.

When will one of the more knowledgeable here post a FAQ on crop factors?

I too was cropped blind but I was enlightened...
 
So I read the Wikipedia article and now I'm a little confused again. I thought you should ignore the crop factor if you are concerned with shooting narrative/cinematic work as it is 99% similar to the area of view of regular 35mm motion pictures.

Is this in fact correct?

Is the difference mentioned in the article only really in relation to 35mm PHOTOGRAPHY?
 
Chance White said:
So I read the Wikipedia article and now I'm a little confused again. I thought you should ignore the crop factor if you are concerned with shooting narrative/cinematic work as it is 99% similar to the area of view of regular 35mm motion pictures.

Is this in fact correct?

Is the difference mentioned in the article only really in relation to 35mm PHOTOGRAPHY?
Click to expand...

You are correct. APS-C sized sensors are very close to the same exposure size of most films. So for instance, if you hear a DP say "Oh, we went with a 28mm for that shot" you can achieve the same look (in terms of FOV) by using a 28mm on the 7D. This is different if it is shot on FF35mm or medium format, but this is relatively rare.

Most film cameras run the film vertically, rather than horizontally as in photographic still cameras. This is why the frame is larger in still cameras.

The whole crop idea is blown entirely out of proportion and ends up causing more confusion. Really, unless you have been shooting on a full frame 35mm camera (i.e. 5D MKII) and have that FOV as your visual schema, there's no real reason to even speak of it.
 
Chance White said:
Is the difference mentioned in the article only really in relation to 35mm PHOTOGRAPHY?
Click to expand...
That is exactly right.

The fact that you got confused again after reading the Wikipedia article demonstrates that simply linking people here to that article might not be as helpful as a dedicated FAQ.
 
Ha ha... yeah... the misconception about crop factor is just so prevalent it causes me to second guess my new understanding of it. So many people are thinking with the old paradigm, I think there must be some validity to it... but alas...

Hopefully a FAQ will help.
 
I think it would help if people stopped using the terms "crop value" or "35mm equivalent" at all. Focal lengths exist for a reason. A very basic table listing the focal lengths of available or common "normal" "wide" and "telephoto" lenses for any given sensor size would do just fine. In the end, that's what people want to know, but they try to explain it using "Full Frame 35mm" as a comparitive basis which just confuses half the readers.

All you need is something very simple, very basic, without any mathmatic formulas like this. Then everybody can look right at the chart to figure out what they want or how any given lens might look on their camera. A complicated FAQ explaining how to "do the math" or providing field of view measurements isn't going to be any easier for half the people who are confused already.

Canon 5D MKII
Normal Lens: 50mm
Slightly Wide Angle: 35mm
Wide Angle: 24mm
Very Wide Angle: 17mm
​
Canon 7D
Normal Lens: 35mm
Slightly Wide angle: 28mm
Wide angle: 17mm
Slight Telephoto: 50mm
Very Telephoto: 135mm+
​
 
Texanite said:
A complicated FAQ explaining how to "do the math" or providing field of view measurements isn't going to be any easier for half the people who are confused already.
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The purpose of the proposed FAQ is to clear the confusion regarding the crop factor issue for beginners who have no idea what it means and have serious misconceptions about it. It won't be about "doing the math." Michael Olsen and I have been trying to do this for the past few weeks whenever someone asks questions about crop factor out of his/her confusion. I don't recall either of us "explaining 'how to do the math' or 'providing field of view measurements.'"

Thanks for the chart, by the way. I was intending on providing something like it in the FAQ.
 
But part of the primary point trying to be communicated is that people are too concerned about the crop factors and full frame etc when it really doesn't matter and we don't need all these conversions SINCE the APS-C size sensor is virtually identical to regular ACADEMY 35mm.
 
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This APS-C sensor is halfway between Academy and Full super 35, so lenses will have the same Field of View that they would with a Panavision, Arriflex, or other 35mm production movie camera.

Full frame sensors like the 5DmkII have the equivalant Field of View to the Vista Vision format which Hollywood uses strictly for VFX work these days. Vista Vision runs horizontally through the camera gate, like a 35mm still camera.

It is not in common use on a set anywhere except possibly ILM, or a few other VFX houses, and mainly for plate photography.

Here is what a Vista Vision Movie camera looks like:

http://cgi.ebay.com/35-MITCHELL-FRI...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item2c49363290
 
ydgmdlu said:
The purpose of the proposed FAQ is to clear the confusion regarding the crop factor issue for beginners who have no idea what it means and have serious misconceptions about it.
Click to expand...

My concern is that 75% of the time that people explain crop factor issues or 35mm equivalents, it doesn't solve the confusion. The people that don't understand these things are, unfortunately, confused even more with explanations of "crop factors", "vista vision" or explanations of difference in frame size between FF35mm still, 35mm academy,Super35mm etc. Sometimes they then THINK that they 'get it', and then go on to answer questions with authority even though they don't even understand it themselves.

The majority of clarifying explanations given on these forums do not solve the actual confusion problem. In fact, right now on this page in this thread I can see multiple "explanations" which are not helping those who are heavily confused or who just want to know "what focal length do I need for a 7D if I want a normal FOV?"

My point is just that a very simple chart is all that's needed for 90% of these questions. People don't really NEED to understand 'crop value'. They don't NEED to know what VistaVision is. They don't NEED to know how many mm across an APS-C sensor is. They don't NEED to know angles of FOV. They don't NEED to know what Academy 35mm is. Yes, all of these things are related, but none of them are necessary to answer the underlying question. And because all of these terms and concepts are juggled around in these threads, people don't even know how to ask the right question. They ask things like "best prime lense approximating 35mm???"

That question doesn't even make sense. What exactly does that mean? It's not the asker's fault, it's because he/she has been innundated with 'facts' that aren't even necessary and/or isn't expressing the question completely clearly. After reading the first post, I presume what the person really wants to know is "What focal length is a 'normal' lens for the 7D?" and is not actually asking "what lens focal length is best for approximating a 35mm lens?" because the answer to that question is simple: A 35mm lens is the lens that would best approximate a 35mm lens.

My answer to this and other simlilarly phrased questions is KISS. A simple chart that everyone can understand.

ydgmdlu said:
It won't be about "doing the math." Michael Olsen and I have been trying to do this for the past few weeks whenever someone asks questions about crop factor out of his/her confusion. I don't recall either of us "explaining 'how to do the math' or 'providing field of view measurements.'"
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:thumbup:

ydgmdlu said:
Thanks for the chart, by the way. I was intending on providing something like it in the FAQ.
Click to expand...

No problem. I'm sure some could debate those focal lengths, I just pulled focal lengths from my head that actually represented lenses that I know exist. Upon reflection, maybe "ranges" would be better/less complicated.

BTW, it's not that I think a FAQ on crop-factors is a bad thing. I'm not against that in principal. I just don't think it's the solution for this specific (and recurring) question.
 
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But...

The chart is unnecessary because you shouldn't even WORRY about the crop factor in the first place UNLESS you are used to FULL FRAME photography.

Otherwise, if you want it to look like a 28mm looks WHEN JANUSZ KAMINSKI OR LARRY FONG OR ROGER DEAKINS shoots with one, use a damn 28mm lens when using the 7D or another APS-C sensor which has a virtually identical 'crop factor'.

Right? Right?
 
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Really the best solution for "crop factor" is to, as some have already suggested, forget about it. Where we get into problems is when people start making these insane conversions ("my 50mm becomes an 80mm on this body"). The best FAQ imo includes a handful of lines about the difference between a 1.6 sensor and a full frame and then implores everyone to forget about it :)
 
Chance White said:
The chart is unnecessary because you shouldn't even WORRY about the crop factor in the first place UNLESS you are used to FULL FRAME photography.
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I'd argue that the chart isn't unnecessary - at least a "Recommended Focal Length Range" chart for the 7D, isn't. A comparison of a similar chart for the 5D may be unnecessary.

Anyone who is a new to shooting on the 7D will benefit from knowing approximately what focal length they are going want to set a shot in. Most people have a conception of what a "wide shot" looks like, but very few think of it in terms of focal length on an APS-C sensor. Having a chart saves time switching primes and, possibly, zooms.
 
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