Best Documentary Camera

Canon C300mk1 with Canon 17-55mm f2.8 and Canon 24-105mm f4. Throw a boom mic on the camera and go handheld. Perfect little setup. Gorgeous 1080p image. All you need.
 
All you need.

Except for 1080p50/60. Or good balance on the shoulder. Or 4K.

C300 was a great camera in its day, but its day was 4 years ago and that is a long time in tech world. The original question said budget was not a concern, so why wouldn't you choose the mkII instead?
 
Dear Ned,

It took me a while to read the whole thread and all your replies. And I have to say that I really enjoyed it and learned a lot from it.

Its sad to know that you are planning to retire especially if you think that you still have the strength to keep going. I think if you gathered some of your stories in a book it will be a very fun book and full of good advice I'm sure. Or if you think that all the new "children with cameras" (me included) don't know how to operate a camera on a reality/documentary shoot why not offer some workshops or at least some tutorials online. I am very interested to learn from an experienced old school DP like you and I'm sure that many will watch these videos.

I do agree with all what you said except that there is never time to make the video look pretty. Mr. Liam Hall was shooting in the UAE few years ago and I had the pleasure of assisting him on a shoot and my God he was so fast! I used to work on commercial shoots as a focus puller, and our sets usually had lots of crew members and everything took time. And it was an amazing experience seeing Mr. Hall doing slider shots on one location, while he had another camera taking a timelapse in another place. And I was setting up a small jib for him in a third place! That was the first time it hit me that you really dont need a full bus of crew members or 3 big trucks of equipment and many days of shooting to make a video look very sharp and pleasing to the eyes.

If anyone is interested please have a look at these 2 examples:
1) Sicario (2015) a $30 million feature film nominated for best cinematography
2) Cartel Land (2015) a documentary that won special jury award for cinematography in Sundance (shot in very tough conditions and no time for mistakes but still looks amazing)

One is a big budget with Arri alexa, Master Primes and full crew
and the other is done by 2 guys shooting C300mk1 with a basic kit and they still managed to film an amazing documentary (content and image wise) so speed isn't an excuse for not making great looking documentaries.


As for the question of the thread: What is the best documentary camera to buy ?
like many who have said earlier, the best documentary camera is the camera that you feel most comfortable using it and the one that will make you work as fast as possible and won't fight you and slow you down. It also helps to consider that this camera is "wanted" by your clients and that the postproduction/Editor/Grader that will handle your files knows how to deal with it. And I hope that people won't put themselves in debt just to buy a better camera, buy what you can afford now or keep renting till you have the cash.

My personal preference (at the moment): is the C300mkII as A-Cam, and C100mkII/5D as B-Cam. I like that they are lightweight and can be used with lightweight tripod, slider, JimmyJib, carmount, glidecam or Ronin and I'm used to the menu system and the lenses.


Please keep these threads coming its very useful and fun to read!

Kind Regards,
 
Hey Hasan, good to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words! And yes, Cartel Land is fantastic:-)

Hope you're keeping busy. Send me a PM and tell me what you've been up to.

Cheers,
 
Hello Hasan,

Thanks for the compliment! I mistyped, I'll be 63 not 64 but nevertheless, one loses their chi, it's like air leaking out of a balloon and the sand is running out in your hour glass. So it's time to work on my Bucket List rather than maximizing my shoot days and savings account.

I could only watch about 15 minutes of Sicario, too depressing, and I will take a documentary over a narrative any day. I loved Cartel Land. In fact, we refuse to vacation in Mexico anymore. Personally, I think the cameramen of that doc were crazy to take such risks, just like the Vice media network. We recently had a Chicago area soundman, James Foley, beheaded by Isis. What was he doing there? When I was young I took crazy risks because I never thought it would happen to me. Then I grew wise with age! My favorite line of The Big Short:

"People hate to think about bad things happening, so they underestimate the likelihood of it happening to them." And that applies to young DPs who go into areas controlled by the violently insane.

I believe there were two or three cameramen, the main guy, in the link below, had a stripped down C300 but the beauty postcard shots were done by another shooter, I believe his name is Matt Porwoll who owns a C300:

https://vimeo.com/132462755

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kNJ6JNAfek

You can tell the scenics were not run 'n gun. Very set up and waited for the light.

BTW, I just got an email from a local crewing service asking if I know of a Chicago female DP who has a FS7. It is a "sensitive" topic so they want a woman but...see what I mean? They want a specific model. Most likely because the majority was shot elsewhere and now they need a few Chicago area scenes or interviews so they want the same model for easier post matching.

All the best,

Ned
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the tip about Cartel Landel. Will def. watch it.

Ned: Learn to shoot the FS7 and rent it for camera-specific jobs :-) Never too old to learn!
 
Hi Martin,

In terms of updating my camera for documentary, which is the start of this thread, I am on the edge of having to go either whole hog into 4K ($14,000?) or just limp along in 2K and thus lose market share. My producing clients go mainly to the web so they don't know from 4K, but my competitors are using having 4K as a marketing tool, as in their speakers go to 11. I could really use the punch in feature for post, although 70% of my DP work is just shooting and who knows who will edit. I could rent FS7s but:

• I'd make less money, always a hassle picking up, prepping and then arranging drop off. I have a local sweetheart deal for a C300 though, the owner rarely uses it.

• I am never as good and as fast with a rental camera than one I own and know well. With my house cameras I instinctively know my settings, etc. have it tricked out, use the EVF only for exposure, perfectly balanced. I always feel clumsy with a rental. I equate it to guitar, where you don't have to even think what your fingers are doing, they just go where they're suppose to. That Flow concept.

I did lately have to rent in an emergency, when my C100 got bricked the night before a shoot when I was out-of-town, and my local grip found me a FS5 at midnight, I was very impressed with it. Having spent the last 10 years in the Panasonic and Canon universes I felt clumsy at first with its menus, but the grip, as now with all grips, is also a budding DP so he helped me out, and within minutes I was back in the saddle, so I do feel if I was to stay in the game I'd transition back to Sony just to Keep Up With the Joneses, considering the price of the C300 2 it makes the FS7 look better plus the LA & NYC folks are in love with it, which may be a testimonial to Sony's marketing prowess. I tend to rent only from private owners for many reasons and I know of no one near me that would rent a FS7 presently, plus I feel I want to do other things with my life. Whenever I get an inquiry, no matter what it is, at 63 (having shot professionally on average several days a week for 38 years!), there's a "Been There, Done That" vibe that starts to resonate in your head. You need more heroin to maintain the same high! Or find a new drug, which is what I am doing now. IDEA: Print out this post, fold it real small and hide it in your sock drawer, unwrap it in 30 years and you'll understand what I mean. But I digress...

Getting back to Cartel Land, I feel if I was to drill down on that project, that Heinemann did the nitty gritty, stripped down, all handheld, available light cinema verite shooting and Porwell did the beauty postcard scenics, establishing, time lapse and abstract shots. Someone had the time, space and talent to do the drone shots while Heinemann was embedded with the subjects. Would bet you $20. Looks like two distinct styles and glass, as if there were an A & B team. Also, am interested in the financing, since I read it was produced on a Sundance grant.

P.S. to anyone bored enough to have gotten this far in my post, check out this doc TV series, Google:

CNN This Life with Lisa Ling

Wow, that's my idea of the latest 2016 doc style, stylish fast editing too. If I was 20 years younger I'd hit them up. Shot by part2 pictures.

https://www.part2pictures.com/happening

My drill down shows they use the C300. So, getting back to the OP's topic, why reinvent the wheel? If the tip top doc shooters swear by the C300, although it's long in the tooth, why not do what the tip of the spear guys do? With the FS7 as a runner up choice? All other models mentioned seem like outliers to me, especially if you are freelance and every doc coming in will be a little different?

On another note, a lot of what makes a documentary fascinating is the CONTENT, and if it's a snooze it really doesn't matter how great the DP is, his or her gear, glass and the talents of the editor, that's why Cartel Land and This Life are so riveting. Lord knows I've been on the sinking ships of boring docs which were propelled by a self financed producer, who is the only one who finds the content fascinating. But that's another story...


See ya,

Ned

P.S. Just came across this, of interest to topic, although if I were in the audience, during Q&A, I'd like to know how do they make a consistent living doing this?

https://vimeo.com/118972162
 
Last edited:
Hi Ned,

Good point about how we don't think that bad things will happen to us, I was in that pink bubble myself till I found myself filming in front of a tank in a country that I'm not related to. Only then it hit me hard "What the hell am I doing here ?!" and decided that dangerous/war zone filming isn't worth it at all.

I am a big fan of Matt Porwoll and his style of shooting; Its sleek and clean but at the same time gives you that authentic feel to the story you are watching. Even BBC and CNN now uses that style all the time.

-- How are the stories in "This is life with Lisa Ling" ? and do you consider it visually the way documentaries should be made Ned ?


-- And can someone who used both the FS7 and the C300 intensively shares his experience and his opinion about the differences in ergonomics and usage (what he really feels annoying or missing when using one over the other)


Hasan
 
Hi there,

I'm back, I turn off the internet on the weekend until Sunday 6PM.

The reason I watch a lot of doc style shows is to stay current as to the styles that are popular. Often the prospect will say, "We want it to look like Anthony Bourdain", or something like that, so staying current is important. Sometimes I will watch them with the sound off while doing something else, keep them in a box on my screen, studying the editing. The Lisa Ling show, I hate when there's a host, you'll notice one camera has to be on her, they often have big egos, but wow, the rest of the show is always fascinating. You can tell they have several others who are not pro shooters with DSLRs running around and sometimes they get lucky. Even a PA with a 5D will get something useful every now and then.

As to the ergonomic differences of the C300 vs FS7, I've only worked with a FS5 so I can't compare. The Sony menus seem cumbersome but perhaps that's just because I have been away from them for so long.

You're smart to stay out of war zones, if you get hurt when you're young you missed the rest of the race.

Best,

Ned
 
Audio. You still have usable audio for that first 5 seconds before you get your shot properly composed. This is absolutely critical on doc work.
Couldn't agree more. Eric, I describe the work you do as Promo-docs. It is a promo made to look like a doc. A true documentary is very rarely staged (except sit down interviews). Sometimes the best ''scene'' will be while shooting b-roll. Shooting a doc is very like fishing, you wait, wait and wait for the great catch(scene). Sometimes it arrive soon and sometimes it takes for ever (because it's not planned). I am not minimising your work, you are very good at what you do, but really, I would not call it docs.
 
I simply don't buy into this argument that people don't have enough time to get a shot. There's always a better shot. Always:-)

While I am a rank beginner with a video camera, I know from my stills experience that that is not so. Sometimes, there is not even enough time for the autofocus to settle, and only someone really skilled at manual focusing will get the shot (An argument I have gotten into on photography forums talking to people who never had to learn how to actually use a camera). Anyway, try getting a better shot of that guy who just jumped into the car and drove off, for instance. In other words, sometimes you only have that one half second chance to get the shot.
 
While I am a rank beginner with a video camera, I know from my stills experience that that is not so. Sometimes, there is not even enough time for the autofocus to settle, and only someone really skilled at manual focusing will get the shot (An argument I have gotten into on photography forums talking to people who never had to learn how to actually use a camera). Anyway, try getting a better shot of that guy who just jumped into the car and drove off, for instance. In other words, sometimes you only have that one half second chance to get the shot.

There are always exceptions to the rule. With experience you'll learn when to stick and when to twist.
 
There are always exceptions to the rule. With experience you'll learn when to stick and when to twist.

My point exactly. You stated it like it was an absolute, although I saw in later posts you backed up a tiny bit. It is kind of interesting seeing a couple of top pro's debating which way is THE WAY (grin).

The only problem with that is that a lot of us reading this do not have enough experience to realize you are both kind of playing devil's advocate.
 
I don't think I've been playing Devil's advocate, I stand by everything I've written in this thread.

And, it seems after everything Ned wrote in this thread, he kind of agrees with me:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...m-Dead&p=1986654171&highlight=#post1986654171

Bottom line, if you simply ask yourself if you are using the right equipment available to you to shoot your scene and you are confident you have chosen the best shots to tell your story then you'll end up with great results.
 
By the way, Ned, here is a photo of the bag I use for my cameras and such which you had asked about before. This is my typical setup for shooting weddings.

Three C100s (one with a 24-105 on it)
Three telephoto zoom lenses (80-200 & 70-210; I often just use the Canon 70-200 for corporate work as it's bigger and more expensive)
Tripod, Monopod, & Duzi Slider (under red sheet)
Audio cables
Spare batteries
On the right, three audio recorders with lavs and a pair of headphones; also, two on-camera LED lights

I'll carry a separate messenger bag which holds three normal zoom lenses (11-20, 24-70, 18-35). And often a separate bag for my Glidecam, vest, and arm. I can fit the Glidecam bag and this bag on a small foldable cart I have. Sometimes I won't bring the Glidecam, though; when I'm by myself I mostly just use it during the reception. If I'm with a second cam op sometimes I'll bring some additional lights and light stands for the reception as well.

Now try to imagine fitting three FS7's into one bag with all that other gear.

128.jpg
 
Very nice bag Eric, has wheels like a Kata? I love everything on wheels so I can have any care member or client who wants to be helpful pull something. I'd worry about those two lenses not surrounded by foam because they will clink against each other.

I am flying to Tampa for a one day shoot tomorrow but won't be able to get together because I have to fly out for a next day gig back home, so sorry. As to the title of this thread, I am busy as I want to be with the C100, HPX300 and Osmo presently, being in a glide path towards retiring, at which time I will only do small charity fundraisers for free. From what I have been seeing in my market the young guns are buying the FS7 with a A7S, that seems to be the popular thing for the doc/corporate market in Chicago but to me that would mean $13K, then add the new Canon zoom for $6K, so I'm out!

See ya,

Ned

P.S. Oh! One last thing. I have a GoPro and on Wednesday I am filming pediatric rehab including in a pool. So I filled my jacuzzi and did some tests, bubbles started to come up! Fixed that leak and now plan to do some artsy underwater. I say artsy because the rez is not great but the whole video will be slo mo. I'm a scuba diver so I have a high end mask and snorkel. We'll see. But I have been getting a lot of use, mainly time lapse, out of the GoPro and will buy a good used one now that the new one has come out and is way too expensive, I don't need 4K.
 
Last edited:
Has wheels like a Kata because it is a Kata.

It's the Large sized rolling bag from Kata I bought a few years ago. Manfrotto bought out Kata around a year ago and now makes those same bags, but slightly different. A few months ago also I bought the Extra Large Manfrotto one (peaking in in the far left side of the photo) to put my light kit in (two Practilite 602's, three Litepanel Astras (one SOFT), 3 AB batteries and a charger, extension cords, grip gear, Astra soft box and grid, etc.), so I can fit my whole light kit (minus stands) in one large bag.

Unfortunately Manfrotto seems to have dumbed down the bag a bit from Kata's glory. The velcro dividers are very weak compared to the Kata, and my Manfrotto bag already has an unexplained tear on it from general use while the Kata bag is still going strong on three years of use. Other than that the Manfrotto bag works well.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1058095-REG/manfrotto_mb_pl_lw_99_pro_extra_large_camera.html


Ah, too bad you didn't have time on this tip. Next time. I make it up to Chicago every now and then as well.

I'm prepping for three back to back shoots now, in NYC, Phoenix, and Oakland over the next four days. Going to fit all my gear for the shoots (three point lighting kit (Astra, two Practilites), slider, two tripods and heads, two C100s, two lav setups, three or four lenses, two or three light stands, umbrella and softbox with grid, laptop, Glidecam HD4000, XLR cable, and extension cords) in one carry-on bag and a backpack so I don't have to check any bags. About 85 lbs between the two bags on my last trip. Think I may slim it down to about 75-80 lbs this trip as I just bought a smaller tripod and a smaller laptop for travel. Fun stuff.

14344881_928975700542360_5865895004760009097_n.jpg


14329962_928976647208932_9098940257323772568_n.jpg


The carry-on suitcase looks like a mess compared to an organized camera bag, but I can fit more stuff that way. I'd like to buy some more smaller gear eventually (such as a flex light or two instead of the Astra) with an actual organized camera bag and see if I can still fit everything. Just started getting booked for various out of state shoots with a newer client where I need to fly instead of drive (I typically drive when I can), so working on getting the hang of it all.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top