Best Documentary Camera

Canon xc10, osmo and x5, phone - are worth very serious consideration (and Phantom Miro or the new 480 fps Sony shoulder camera)

You know I shot with the X5 earlier in the week and think one must ask the question.. why is this camera not appropriate.

The XC10 has slightly special ergonomics due to a quirk of the viewfinder position and the 'reach' is awesome compared to any portable mirrorless solution

S
 
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Of those, I'd personally pick the FS7.

A lot of the time though, a broadcast-style shoulder camera, or a compact handheld camcorder, will be the best choice for fast-moving run-n-gun stuff. So the list should really be a lot longer than what you've listed.
 
morgan_moore said:
Canon xc10, osmo and x5, phone - are worth very serious consideration (and Phantom Miro or the new 480 fps Sony shoulder camera)

You know I shot with the X5 earlier in the week and think one must ask the question.. why is this camera not appropriate.

The XC10 has slightly special ergonomics due to a quirk of the viewfinder position and the 'reach' is awesome compared to any portable mirrorless solution

S
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I personally find the image quality on the Canon XC10 and the X5 (X5R looks good, though) to be mediocre at best, and not up to par for shooting on a doc with an unlimited budget. I suppose if the built-in servo zoom was imperative for working quickly the XC10 may be the right choice at the cost of low image quality.



jagraphics said:
It depends on the documentary..... Anything from an iPhone or Go-Pro upwards.
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I'm speaking generally. Sure, a GoPro may have been the best camera for Hardcore Henry, but one could hardly generalize it's the best A-cam for typical Hollywood narrative films, of which, based on how much it is used, I'd say the Arri Alexa is the best camera for big budget narrative films.


deltoidjohn said:
Of those, I'd personally pick the FS7.

A lot of the time though, a broadcast-style shoulder camera, or a compact handheld camcorder, will be the best choice for fast-moving run-n-gun stuff. So the list should really be a lot longer than what you've listed.
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So why the FS7 over an F55, C300 Mark II, or Arri Amira if money is not a consideration?
 
If there really is an unlimited budget, then certainly a single camera can not attempt to fill all needs. Sometimes a fully crewed Arri 65mm might be best, sometimes a small single operator camera like a GH4 might be best, and certainly sometimes a tiny action camera will be best. If there is no budget limit, why limit your creativity by locking into a single camera?

Even the "lowly" XC10 or the JVC cameras have their place where they are the best camera for the job at hand. And sometimes it may depend on who's hands are on the camera at that specific time.

The reality is, there is no one ring to rule them all.
 
It shouldn't be this complicated. If a producer were to come to you the DP and ask what one camera you would like them to rent for their documentary...you ask what kind of documentary...they say they don't have details yet, but would still like a camera recommendation now. Then you recommend them a camera based on your best generalized guess based on your generalized experience with documentary filmmaking.

It's the same concept as buying. If I'm asking what camera to buy for high end documentary filmmaking (which I pretty much am), the answer isn't "every camera because every camera can serve best in their own specified roles." No, the answer is one camera. Maybe two or three at most. But not every camera.

The Arri 65 is a bit large, with a difficult workflow that would slow down the production of a documentary, as, generally speaking, documentary filmmaking is fast paced and needs a camera setup that can keep up with the pace. Also since, again, generally speaking, a lot of documentaries are filming non-actors, having a full crew to support the Arri 65 may negatively intimidate the people you'd be filming. That, and I don't know of any docs being filmed with the Arri 65 as their A-camera.
 
Varicam LT. There's a definitive answer of a good camera that can work in lots of places doing lots of things. It is not the one camera to rule them all that you seem to be questing to find. It and a GH4R with external recorder would make a nice pair for "buy it right now" cameras to shoot a myriad of docs in a myriad of places.

Same could be said of FS7 or F5 and an A7S pair.

If I had $50,000 to spend on a doc camera rig, I most certainly would err on the side of caution and get a "traditional" shoulder camera and a compact camera from the same family to maintain consistent "looks". I doubt I would go up to F65 for the main camera, much like the Arri 65mm, it could be considered overkill. Bet it hasn't stopped people from using an F65 on docs though.
 
To this day, my favorite camera/lens is STILL my P2 VariCam w/Fuji 13x4.5. If I had to go to war with one camera, THAT would be the ONE camera I'd take with me. ENG cameras are more or less built for documentary work. Their design is damn near perfect and the reason that the basic design hasn't changed in 1,000 years and the layout is basically the same, even between all of the different manufacturers. Except in certain unique situations, I always prefer an ENG camera and lens if I'm having to shoot off-the-shoulder, have big range versatile zoom lenses and be able to adjust and capture something unfolding around me quickly. Don't get me wrong, I love the image from my C300 and prefer it for most sit-down interviews and my F55 is pretty dang versatile, too(HD, 4K, High Speed). BUT, nothing allows me to work the way that I like to work and feels as good on my shoulder, like a true ENG camera and lens. My .02
 
So why the FS7 over an F55, C300 Mark II, or Arri Amira if money is not a consideration?
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Speed, form factor, ease of use. F55 and Arri Amira (and Red) are designed with multi-operator environments in mind. For doc work, I'd much rather a camera that I can easily carry all day, and manage all the cards and data easily without an assistant.

As for the C300mkII, well, I'd much rather the Sony because I'm more familiar with it and I love it's features.
 
An Amira or F55 would be my first choice if there will be AC to wrangle batteries, & PL lenses.

A C300 II or FS7 if there isn't a AC.

I'd also want a smaller camera available (A7x, GH4, etc) for times the previous options are not appropriate.

EDIT: The Varicam LT would likely be another candidate but I haven't used one yet.
 
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Bern Caughey said:
An Amira or F55 would be my first choice if there will be AC to wrangle batteries, & PL lenses.
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I doubt you'd need an AC just to wrangle batteries. An Anton Bauer 190 (which is 3 lbs compared to the 2 lb 90 watt battery) should last about four hours on the Amira (50 watt power draw) and eight hours on the F55 (25 watt power draw). So two of those batteries should get you through most shoots.
 
Of the current cameras, I would certainly want to demo or rent a Varicam LT and consider some different lens packages before I made any purchase. The Canon C series make nice images, but I'm not certain the form factor is what I would want (personal choice). But I still back this up by saying that in this day and age, I would want one main camera, and one small camera for the majority of things. High end stuff would probably beg for two main cameras and again at least one small camera for those times when size really does matter. With v-log LT on the GH4 designed to "match" the Vari-cam log recordings, this seems like a logical choice to me. I've worked with cameras designed to be used primarily for TV, and been trained to repair several different brands, and the Panasonic cameras have always been a good choice. Sony would probably be my next choice based on performance and durability and support. Not sure if Ikegami makes anything that you would want, but they still make some nice stuff for TV. And good old Hitachi seems to be getting back in the game, so I might look at them too.

If I needed something that I was likely to need to ditch or was likely to be shot or otherwise mangled, I'd certainly look at the 4k offerings from JVC, we use JVC HD cameras now and they have pluses and minuses just like other cameras. One of the pluses is that parts are relatively cheap and easy to obtain, service is also pretty prompt for their Pro gear when you do need to send it in. I would consider their new 4K stuff here at school and probably Rokinon lenses or some kind of inexpensive zoom.

As far as power is concerned, I'm extremely happy with IDX brand of batteries and chargers. That pretty much limits you to V mount, but I don't see that as much of a limit these days. We've used them since before I began working here in 2003 with NP1 batteries. They lasted well and were not that expensive. The V mounts for our latest cameras have been great, hands down a recommended choice. That said, if I was traveling with a camera, I would have both mounts, or one of the adapter plates so that I could use either V mount or AB mount batteries as needed.

To summarize this whole thread, I think if you ask enough people, you will receive a recommendation for just about all of the top tier cameras. But from a practical point, I think the common denominator is one of the cameras in the $15k to $18k range (body only) as the best balance between price and performance. That said, if you are looking for justification for an Amira, then just go buy one. No question that they are high quality cameras and will produce excellent images in the hands of a capable user. Remember that it isn't so much the tool in use, as the person using that tool. I can paint things with a paintbrush, I can not create great works of art with oil paints or watercolors. Just because I can use a brush does not make me an artist.

Try a few of the suggested camera and see what feels good to you, if it doesn't sit on your shoulder right, or doesn't work on a tripod the way you like, move on to the next choice. You are going to be into too much money to just make a wild guess based on what we can suggest, make it the right tool for you right now that allows you to work well or fast or whatever you need. And don't forget to think about workflow in post, unless everything you do is sent of to someone else to edit, then you only need to worry about the camera.

And I still say if someone wants to hire, but they don't like the camera you own, rent what you need or prove to them that what you own is better for their needs. Sometimes proving this may require a financial discount (the first time), money still does talk after all is said and done.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I doubt you'd need an AC just to wrangle batteries.
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An AMIRA, 19-90mm, & AB 190, weighs 20+ lbs.

While some operators wouldn't blink at lugging that around all day, most want to hand it off to an AC to preserve their energy, & back.

Consider providing more details about the project(s). Air travel, & destination, alone could effect suggestions.
 
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Great topic Eric. I have had to ask myself that question many times over the last 38 years. Sometimes I bought the BEST camera, which turned out to be a business mistake...I SHOULD have bought what was the most popular for doc in my area so I could interface, work second unit, rent accessories, etc. I bought the "better" 16mm Aaton film camera but the Arri SR flooded the market, etc. so all the ACs knew that model only. Made that mistake several times. The "best" camera in one's mind is not necessarily the best business decision. Documentary producers and clients tend to not be techy, who have the ability to HIRE you, are familiar with your competitors and if you have the "odd" model you then have to explain (sell) your model, such as when a producer would ask if I had a 5D and I'd have to say, "No, I have a Panasonic AF100 which looks similar but blah, blah, blah..." They'd ask if I had a C300 and I'd have to say, "No, I have the C100 but with the Ninja it's just like a C300 blah, blah, blah..."

The best documentary camera to get is not determined by specs. It is more useful from a "getting hired" sense to get the camera that is taking over that end of the documentary market because when you need to rent (or hire operators who own) many cameras for a live event that takes place in the documentary, you have matching cameras. I discovered this over the years when I would own a specific (odd) model and the producer(s) would request 3-5 more for a concert, newsy event, etc. Also, there will be more people familiar with your model and it's menus, parts are more available for repairs, after market doo-dad manufacturers like Zacuto will focus in on it, etc. There is a status conferred on having the latest, most popular. Any "odd" model requires a sales job to a non-technical prospect.

That said, and having made the mistake of getting a "better" camera which was considered odd in terms of market saturation, the C300 took over the high end doc market the last 5 years or so, makes sense to consider except the horse in that race pulling ahead is now the Sony FS7 as the default to buy, Doc/Non-Fiction TV Show/Corporate camera. Crews Control has a survey they send out that lists the most requested cameras, does anyone here get their newsletter? That would be a deciding factor. You could ask to be on their list and report back to us. I always liked the survey of most requested cameras as a guideline.

So...some of this is affected by geography, I'm in Chicago and over the years I have seen manufacturer bias from either coast. I assume it's the influence of the dealers, which model Abel pushes, etc. But for Chicago, the calls and emails I get for matching scenes shot in other cities, from what I hear competitors are buying, the gossip from the sales people I know, the FS7 is where the pendulum is swinging, so therefore I would have to go with that, regardless if something else is "better". I figure $16K for the FS7, the new Canon 18-80 servo zoom and a 4K monitor. That would be the default set up a doc style producer would expect and anything else (besides a C300) you'd have to do the blah, blah, blah sales job. They tend not to be technical these doc producers but they do know what the most common models are, all they know is find a DP who owns X in Tampa.

I come from an ENG camera background and as one of the posters mentioned, nothing is better for hand held doc shooting than that form factor camera with a servo zoom perfectly balanced on your shoulder. I have never experienced a shoulder rig, with still lenses, and weirdly positioned EVF that matches the fluidity of an ENG model for handheld all day. The problem with documentary shooting is that, similar to a reality show, you're often following around a subject ALL DAY hand held, so you have to keep that in mind when it comes to form factor.

I shot America's second reality series about life in high school for six days a week, for six and a half months, all day, betacam handheld with a AB brick. I got that gig, which made my fortune, by buying the very popular Sony D600 although many would claim a couple of other models had better specs. The high end documentary production company in NYC was looking for an owner op with that particular model because ALL TV and docs were being shot with that, this is what the best DPs owned and they had to be good because it cost $60K. My point is: Buy what they want you to OWN. It's a black and white business decision.

It's all a moot point for me, I may be retiring next year! But my advice, from a business perspective not a spec consideration, is go with where the market is heading. Also for resale value. I was at B&H's professional showroom last August in NYC and they said the FS7 was a sales tsunami.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
It shouldn't be this complicated. If a producer were to come to you the DP and ask what one camera you would like them to rent for their documentary...you ask what kind of documentary...they say they don't have details yet, but would still like a camera recommendation now. Then you recommend them a camera based on your best generalized guess based on your generalized experience with documentary filmmaking.
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I disagree, it can be complex.

My FS7 has 620 hours on the clock from the last eighteen months. I've shot high-end docos and corporates with it, but if your producer asked me if I would recommend it my initial response would be, for what?

You can't just consider the camera, it needs to be a package. Lenses, grip and lighting all need due consideration and impact on the choice of camera. You need to know more to make a good call. Is there air travel involved and budget for twenty peli cases?? Is there budget for an assistant or any other crew? Is it an international shoot? Do you need to be discrete or intimate when filming? Will we be in remote locations? Do we need to be lightweight? And what about post, can they handle my choice of camera?

The days of rolling up with a camera and a set of sticks are long gone. These days producers demand more. They want camera movement, drone shots, timelapse, multicamera shooting, 4k, slow motion. And they want things done quickly. They want to slip through customs with the minimum of fuss and they want cinematic quality in every shot. That requires thought and planning, not a generalised approach.

Rarely, do I turn up with just one camera, on a recent posh doc we had Red Epic, Sony Fs7 A7smkII and a GH4. Each camera performed a different roll. Each was the right choice.
 
Liam Hall said:
I disagree, it can be complex.

My FS7 has 620 hours on the clock from the last eighteen months. I've shot high-end docos and corporates with it, but if your producer asked me if I would recommend it my initial response would be, for what?

You can't just consider the camera, it needs to be a package. Lenses, grip and lighting all need due consideration and impact on the choice of camera. You need to know more to make a good call. Is there air travel involved and budget for twenty peli cases?? Is there budget for an assistant or any other crew? Is it an international shoot? Do you need to be discrete or intimate when filming? Will we be in remote locations? Do we need to be lightweight? And what about post, can they handle my choice of camera?

The days of rolling up with a camera and a set of sticks are long gone. These days producers demand more. They want camera movement, drone shots, timelapse, multicamera shooting, 4k, slow motion. And they want things done quickly. They want to slip through customs with the minimum of fuss and they want cinematic quality in every shot. That requires thought and planning, not a generalised approach.

Rarely, do I turn up with just one camera, on a recent posh doc we had Red Epic, Sony Fs7 A7smkII and a GH4. Each camera performed a different roll. Each was the right choice.
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I think I've already said this in this topic; buying a camera requires a generalized approach. But the answers in this topic keep deviating to a non-generalized approach. All of those questions you ask are project specific. Most people don't buy a camera for one single project; they buy a camera for what they expect their general work to be over the next 2-5 years of the camera's shelf life. I guess in the original post I meant more as a doc camera to own, not as a doc camera to rent for case-by-case projects.

If a producer comes to me and asks what camera we should use on the shoot he's hiring me for, I'd probably tell them what cameras I own and ask what their budget is. If they don't like what I own and want to use a different camera, then I may not be the person for the job because my investment in cameras is so high that doing a shoot while renting other cameras won't pay me a day rate that will make financial sense to take on a regular basis. That's not to say I won't take occasional jobs using cameras that aren't mine, just that that isn't my target client base, nor would it be for anyone who owns a lot of gear. For example, I believe Philip Bloom doesn't take jobs that don't use his gear, even if X camera he doesn't own may occasionally be better suited for X job. I personally rent gear maybe like, once or twice a year on average, out of 130 shoot days in a year.

And yeah, of course most owners own more than just a camera and tripod. I sure do. But this topic isn't about support equipment.
 
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Ned, that's all fine from a business standpoint. I'm saying if one's business model is to aim for the top end, where the top end clients can afford to pay appropriate rates for the best gear for the job. Is the FS7 the best camera then? I don't think so, as I think the C300 Mark II is better in most ways unless you use 180 fps slow motion a lot or need 4K 60p. I think some producers may prefer the FS7 so they can get a lower day rate, but that consideration wouldn't be as important in the top end of doc filming.


nedcam said:
nothing is better for hand held doc shooting than that form factor camera with a servo zoom perfectly balanced on your shoulder.
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But then it begs the question, is handheld shoulder shooting the best way to film a doc? With Steadicams, sliders, monopods, gimbals, etc., the long form factor of an ENG shaped cam such as the Amira can be a hindrance to getting shots other than shoulder mounted. Consider this post from the FS7 forum...


gene_can_sing said:
The image and menu layout are top notch on the Arris.

However, I'm wondering if the idea of heavy ENG cameras handling better is more nostalgia than reality? I've lifted Amira and its heavy (10 lb body). Lately, I've been shooting a lot of ENG jobs with the Panasonic HPX600 which is similar weight (maybe a bit lighter) and ergonomics to the Amira and I HATE it. Even on the shoulder which is suppose to be the plus of added weight, I don't see that much of a benefit in contrast to having lug around the camera and the heavier tripod to support the camera. All your rigs, tripods, jibs, steadycams, etc... All have to be considerably heavier / more expensive to support the much heavier cameras.

its just so tiring compared to the FS7 which is a breeze to work with all day and not even break a sweat. Shooting from the waist or low angle with the handle is so much easier with lighter cameras as well.

There's a reason why companies are making lighter camera and probably why the Alexa Mini Is so popular. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I just can't deal with all that extra weight all day, which I've been doing pretty regularly lately with my ENG crew.
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That's what would make me hesitant to consider a Varicam LT or Amira as a doc cam over say a C300 or FS7. I guess if one's "style" is handheld, then ENG ergonomics works fine. But if that's not one's style?

Of course with the larger cameras such as the Amira and Varicam LT you get the added benefit of better image quality, but at the cost of either shooting everything handheld or needing larger and slower support equipment for anything beyond handheld.
 
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Liam Hall said:
Rarely, do I turn up with just one camera, on a recent posh doc we had Red Epic, Sony Fs7 A7smkII and a GH4. Each camera performed a different roll. Each was the right choice.
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Eric Coughlin said:
Ned, that's all fine from a business standpoint. I'm saying if one's business model is to aim for the top end, where the top end clients can afford to pay appropriate rates for the best gear for the job.
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Liam pretty much answered it... If the budget is big enough, several things will be used, and each one used for its strengths and avoided for its weak points depending on the shot needed at that moment.

It is hard to argue that an Arri makes fantastic pictures, and so do the Reds. But the question also comes up, if you buy the penultimate camera, will you be able to afford to hire out at lesser rates and still pay for it? And unless you have these unlimited budget producers knocking on your door, and then turning away because they find out that you are only using some lowly Sony camera, can you really expect to be able to get those same people if you own an XYZ?

I'd still look at matching up a shoulder camera, middle weight, and light weight camera as a system. That way if you needed to do handheld, you are set. If you needed two angles (or 3) you would be set. Jib or gimbal or steadycam good with the middle weight, and of course really compact or on smaller jib/gimbal/slider with the light weight.
 
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