"Below Dry Water" - The movie is out

Kholi said:
This is one of those "breaking the rules" statements that wouldn't fly too well with an audience of a greater mass.

I'm sorry, but the lack of an establishing shot of a KEY locale isn't very smart for ANY reason at all. I can understand that someone might be a "rookie" filmmaker, and it just wasn't there, there just wasn't time, permits, etc. ... but not including an establishing shot for "emotional" puporses isn't an intelligent move.

In fact, after downloading and rewatching the beginning twice, an establishing shot layered with a dolly or even a medium shot for the briefest of moments would've:

A) Increased aesthetic production value.
B) Given a linear path to follow, for the lack thereof derails the viewer from a solid course of action.


Without establishing shots, the viewer is completely removed from the story itself. Movies watch the same way they read. You need key information to solidify the facts in the narrative.
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I second this. Not having one can be alright if the second location isn't too far from location number one, but it really throws things off without establishing shots. That's a good thing to keep in mind when shooting narrative stuff. I remind myself of it all of the time, because the first few shorts I ever shot with multiple locations, I had forgotten to get some establishing shots and when I cut them together, I got to a point where I wanted one, and I thought, "... oh crap." haha, the lessons we learn in life.
 
Reverend Godless said:
MiniMan,
Hey, sorry if someone already asked this, but, where are you from? And how long have you been shooting with a DVX? Barring the problems/oddities of the aforementioned, I was fairly impressed, and REALLY impressed with the scene of the windblowing in that room with the curtains and the smooth pan down. Definately made me appreciate the whole thing more. I feel like if you had taken the time and composition for things like that in the opening scene even, it would have made it a lot more fun to watch. Also, maybe it's just me, but the opening song didn't seem to fit the "bored" feeling. But, again, Killer short. Keep rocking!
-Luke
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Oh well, I'm from the south-west end of (actually the richest country in the world, did it look anything like that?" Norway. I've been shooting with the DVX100E for about six months now, and I used a Sony Handycam for six months before that. Huh and, the smoooth pan was really simple, if you know how to do it the smart way:thumbsup:

Thanks, man
 
Good job to all of you... Lot's of great stuff in there. Keep shooting, things will only be getting bigger and better for you.
 
Shooting an establishing shot is good practice. Just like getting coverage of any scene is a good idea. But that doesn't mean you have to use it, nor should you make it a rule to use the footage just because you have it. What if you weren't allowed to use an establishing shot, just as some rule? What if that was the norm, let's just say that it is. Now you would have to create a Feeling. Just like when you read a novel, it doesn't make a very emotionally involving story to write a story like, TV made us bored. Gunther said we should go to Scary School. We rode our effeciently enginnered bicycles to Scary School. We saw the outside of Scary School. We went inside Scary School. We saw a Scary Guy. Gunther shot him. I thought we should have cut his head off but I didn't say anything. We ran. Gunther died. Everyone but Gunther ran. Thor died. I shot Scary Guy. I ran. The feeling is created in all aspects of the movie; acting, editing, cinematography, music. Just because you have a shot of the outside of a Scary School doesn't mean you'll feel scared. I like the way it lacks establishing shot because it feels, like a lot of people said, smoother. I think this is one of the reasons why. Though he may not have intended it, the effect it has is keeping you into the moment while feeling like something may happen. If you NEED an establishing shot, be sure that it has something to say emotionally about the scence, not just We are at Scary School.
 
Why isn't that saying something emotionally if you have an establishing shot?
Why can't we have a shot of "Scary School". I think that you're under the impression, "everyone else does it, so it's not creative." However, there are more than one way to establish a location. An old sign, a playground, a bike rack. Like I said, if you strip a film of dialouge it still should tell the same exact story. When you go someplace in real life you don't close your eyes when you go to a building, you need to navigate it.
An establishing shot in this case could be eeire and actually enhance the emotion of the scene. I'm not saying it's needed because I understood what was going on, but only through DIALOUGE, and I'm saying if the film was silent than an establishing shot would be a MUST, or it just doesn't make any sense.
 
directinglegend said:
Why isn't that saying something emotionally if you have an establishing shot?
Why can't we have a shot of "Scary School". I think that you're under the impression, "everyone else does it, so it's not creative." However, there are more than one way to establish a location. An old sign, a playground, a bike rack. Like I said, if you strip a film of dialouge it still should tell the same exact story. When you go someplace in real life you don't close your eyes when you go to a building, you need to navigate it.
An establishing shot in this case could be eeire and actually enhance the emotion of the scene. I'm not saying it's needed because I understood what was going on, but only through DIALOUGE, and I'm saying if the film was silent than an establishing shot would be a MUST, or it just doesn't make any sense.
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I think that's what it might be. "Because it's the tried and true way to do things, it's not emotional." That's why independent films are, for the most part, horrid unwatchable. Young filmmakers will be young filmmakers, but making learning the craft and the art of storytelling is still key in developing your own style. You learn these rules, then twist them within reason to fit your own creative nature.

As well, Legend is correct: Dialogue isn't the selling point of any succesful film/movie. You don't go to a movie to listen to the dialogue. You first convey your ideas through visuals, then you texturize it with corresponding, needed dialogue.

Whatever, the short is decent enough, anyway.


Keep doing what you're doing, and read up and study more. Good luck to you.
 
Great, lets see how many non-horrid unwatchable pieces you make, or lets turn on the TV any narrative show. I watch a ton of movies that follow every rule and still blow, and not just my opion of rules makes them blow, not that I'm anti-rule. I could just say, oh you don't like movies that aren't textbook and anything that's experimetal is crap, that's what you think. I do feel that people just look at a movie and say that's missing an establishing shot, and not really think about why it needs to be there, they just know that location information is important because someone said so. I just don't want people not thinking about what they're showing. If something just works, but isn't a following a rule not very many true filmmakers will cut it out. Take for example in Jurassic Park where the T-Rex attacks the car,while it's trying to knock over the car, the area behind the fence, that was level ground in an early shot, is now a 60 foot cliff, and the car gets knocked off it. Agian with Jurassic Park, the scene where Laura Durn is looking for the kids and Dr. Grant there's small jump in time, when she's where the car are then it cuts to her at the bottom of the 60 foot cliff searching around the car. Anyways my point is that you shouldn't be afraid to experiment a little, there are many things in that short that are textbook and work. Taking a risk and having something that's not the norm is ok, it's how we grow...and learn...
 
my take on it is that you have to make your own mistakes and learn from them. It's almost impossible to learn from other people if you have a drive and a vision of your own. No matter how many times someone tells you what you should do, you must make what you need to make. Take a step back, and look again in a month or two with fresh eyes.

The best of the unconventional directors who break the rules, first learnt how to master them. You have to understand classical filmmaking inside out before you begin to break it. At least IMO. The best way to subvert something is to get inside it and know it completely.

But you cant tell someone; they have to see it for themselves. Take advice as a collective response and dont react on individuals comments. There is a point where it comes down to subjectivity than a 'golden rule'. Some people will think 'I loved that bit' others will hate it. Some people think Lynch is a genius, others a nonsensical mess. Who is your target audience? and what do they have to say? If someone who's favourite film is 'van helsing' tells me to change a bit in my film - I'll just look at him and smile.

Stick to your vision but learn from yourself also. Some of the best work comes out of somebody making something that others say is just wrong. This isnt to say do something different just because no-one else has done it, you haver to ask yourself why you're doing it this way. If you can answer that then no-one can tell you it's wrong.

Think about everything you do, down to the shot if you can. If you choose to have no establishing shot, why? This will help you, maybe you're hiding a fact from the viewer which you will reveal later. Maybe the immediate scene you shoot hides the truth of where they really are. There are reasons why you would leave it out.

Fundamentally, no matter how much you dress it up, no matter how much you throw at it; it all comes back to first the idea and second the script. And this isnt just dialogue as said earlier. Hitchcock once said "Once you have written the script, and added the dialogue..." I think this is a great way to view things. Show, don't tell. Add dialogue only if you have to. Images are more powerful than monologues. But images still tell that exact same story, but in a more complelling way.

But Im getting O/T....The short had potential; great location too. The more of these you make the more you're level of execution will improve. You just have to keep making them. By all means listen to people's advice, but follow your insitnct too. If we all just wanted to be like another film director there would be no point in making stuff. We do it because we believe we're offering something people havent seen, or at least told in a different way. Stick to that inner voice, learn the rules and you'll develop nicely.
 
mini, overall nice short. Congratulations on putting the work into, most people never get even this far.
I liked your overall thoughts, I think you just needed to put a little more thought into a couple scenes. You did a good job drawing people into the characters initially but then abandoned that once they got to the school. Maybe have the 'scared' kid say something that gets him teased by the bigger kid for his fear. By not continuing what you started the viewer starts to drift from their connection - it's not a one and done thing.
Would you walk trough a scary hall quiet all the time - nervousness tends to make us say something - even if the result is to be told to shut it :)

The scene where he takes the gun from the killer completely removes the sense of scariness - if he's so scary why do they walk right up to him? Possibly you could have had the gun fall from his hands and clatter to their feet as he fell. Then maybe he twitches and that's why they shoot him and run - or maybe they just run.
You also need to establish the reason they fight - fear makes us run, being trapped makes us fight - I don't think you established a trapped feeling.

That said I really liked the end when the 'scared' kid took the gun from the other kid - this felt very natural as he was faced with real immenant danger so the fight or flight instinct comes into play - he can't run so he fights. Good job.

Stay away from things that look staged like the coke and water sitting right there at the beginning and the killer throwing his ax... Those just aren't the way real life happens.

In any case keep up the work - I always have a ton to learn once I look at something I shot - it's never perfect and there are always things I overlook. The key is to keep learning!
 
maybe I missed something, but how do they know the guy is a killer? When they first see him, he is just a staggering guy who had an axe in him right? If so, then it appears they shoot a guy who had been attacked by someone. Why do they shoot him in the first place? He never tried to hurt them?
 
msconce said:
maybe I missed something, but how do they know the guy is a killer? When they first see him, he is just a staggering guy who had an axe in him right? If so, then it appears they shoot a guy who had been attacked by someone. Why do they shoot him in the first place? He never tried to hurt them?
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I guess he looked scary and behaved like a threat to the guy. Although yeah, the shooting was a tiny bit un-natural:lipsrseal
 
It's alright, just keep doing what you're doing. I don't think you'll be remaking the movie, so the next run-around try to keep in mind the points made here.

Lots more pre-planning will go a LONG way. =)
 
In the beginning, it was a little shakey (not sure if that's the look you were going for) and the audio was off (the mixing). But other than that it has a good feel to it and you have alot of nice shots. Good job!
 
Oh man, the movie was...i don't know what to say...not such a good story. Well then again, most horror movies aren't, but, the beginning, I thought you guys were looking at each other and scared. I had no clue at what you guys were doing. You have to watch those cuts. Cuz on one shot, they were looking to the left of the frame, and the other shot, the one kid was looking to the right.

I actually almost fell alseep, until this intense music came on. I was like, "woh..." But I'm sure you guys will get better. I started out like this as well.

Many of the shots looked like it was filmed with two different cameras. The CC was different on them. Well, good luck to you!

P.S. Sorry if I repeated anything that others said. I didn't have time to read them.
 
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