GH2 Audio Solutions for Documentary/News Work Help!

[mshakeshaft]

I could do with some advice, please. By profession I am a photojournalist. Whist I use Canon DSLRs for my day to day work I was really impressed with the Panasonic GH2 video, so I have purchased one. Image quality is great but I am having difficulties with audio. I sometimes cover news events/demonstrations, where I need a compact setup. This is real run-n-gun stuff, but I want reasonable audio. Plan A was to use a Rode Video Mic Pro, but I found this is far too hot. With the camera set to 1 and the mic set to 0 or -10 db the meters on the camera still peak. In loud environments it is just not going to work. I suspect this mic is better suited to Canons where the camera inputs are less sensitive. I also really missed having any sort of monitoring and gain control. I know camera monitoring is impossible with the GH2, but mic monitoring would be better than nothing at all.

Plan B was to look at either the Zoom H4n or the Tascam DR100, but everything I have read about them suggests the Preamps are weak/noisy? So do I need separate preamps? If I am using preamps, I may as well feed this directly into the camera (Plan C).

Shotgun Mic choice: I have to say whilst the size of the Video Mic Pro had a lot to commend it, I was not impressed with the build quality. In the environments I am working in it is not going to survive. So I think I have settled for the Audio Technica AT875r with a Rycote shock mount and Dead Cat. This is short so can be camera/bracket mounted (not ideal I know).

At the moment I am looking at either the Juiced Link 454 or the Sound Devices Mixpre-D (price is very scary). The problem with both of these is that compared to the GH2 they are both HUGE. I would prefer to mount under the camera with short cables. Whilst I would like balanced XLR inputs I did consider the JL DS214, but I need phantom power and the mount is completely wrong for a small camera (what were they thinking)? Another solution could be the SD MM1, but I was a bit put off by the stepped gain control. Does anyone have any other suggestions. With these preamp/mic choices will I be able to get the gain low enough?

Any suggestions would be appreciated, I have researched myself in circles!

Thanks Martin

 

[Boncrek]

Wow you've laid some points here that I would also liked anwers to.
For myself I was settled on using both on-board audio and dual system sound simultaneously.
You're conclusions about the Videomic Pro (VMP) are quite sad though as I was looking forward to using it.

I have the NTG-2 and so the normal Zoom/Tascam offerings wont work well due to weak-ish preamps and a weak mic.
I've since settled on the Marantz PMD661 as my recorder of choice but it isn't small or light either.

I think if you or I are to get the audio we want in these type of environments then we would need a dedicated sound/boom person.
Thats the conclusion I came up with. I'd like to hear more from more experienced members here on what they think the best bet is.
I saw a trailer for a documentary that was shot on the GH2 and GH13 using the VMP and an H2 on a boompole.
The audio during the interviews was more than decent so maybe something similar can suffice.

*Read the comments of the trailer on vimeo and you can see he lists the VMP as essential gear for the GH2 . He even did a consistent review of it in another vid on his channel specifically with the GH2. He basically says he did dual system sound along with the VMP so that he can have a backup but all the interview sound you hear in the trailer is from the VMP.

 

[TheDingo]

Using a Sennheiser G3 100 system with my GH-2 mic level set to 1, I see peaking into RED on the camera audio display, but when I check the sound with an audio editor the levels are not even close to peaking. So my impression is that the GH-2 camera meters are over-reacting. You might be fine with the Video Mic Pro, otherwise I would have a custom -20 dB inline adapter made to bring the levels down.

 

[Lpowell]

Plan B was to look at either the Zoom H4n or the Tascam DR100, but everything I have read about them suggests the Preamps are weak/noisy? So do I need separate preamps? If I am using preamps, I may as well feed this directly into the camera (Plan C).

The Zoom H4N is a far better solution than recording directly to the GH2. It delivers uncompressed PCM 4-track audio recording in 24-bit/48khz sampling, with 48-volt phantom power on its two independent XLR inputs. The built in X-Y stereo mics can be bypassed by a stereo 1/8-inch jack input and its recording levels can be monitored both visually on its LCD and audibly via headphone jack. The GH2 can do none of these things.

The Zoom H4N is currently the most compact and flexible audio recorder offering powered XLR inputs. However, it runs off a pair of 1.5-volt batteries which are inadequate for extended recording sessions. With a suitable adapter cable, it can be powered from a 5-volt USB output that can deliver 1-amp. I would not use the included AC power adapter due to the potential for 60hz power line hum.

While the H4N analog preamps are not the best available, in practical terms, their noise level is well below the background noise of any real-life environment. You would need to use the H4N in a soundproof studio to hear any significant internal noise in its recordings, and in that situation, you'd likely have access to studio-quality audio recording equipment. The H4N is designed as a self-contained portable multi-track audio recorder and is well-suited for that use.

 

[Boncrek]

The zoom and tascam are both solid performers at what they do.
They just dont work well with my NTG-2 which is why I said what I said.

Also I think the OP is somewhat concerned with form factor.
Any ideas on how to rig the zoom or tascam o the GH2?

 

[Lpowell]

Any ideas on how to rig the zoom or tascam o the GH2?

Here's a photo of the Zoom H4N on a Gini shoulder mount. With this setup I can operate the H4N and the GH1 with my right hand and visually monitor both of them while recording.

 

[BrandonT]

The zoom and tascam are both solid performers at what they do.
They just dont work well with my NTG-2 which is why I said what I said.

Also I think the OP is somewhat concerned with form factor.
Any ideas on how to rig the zoom or tascam o the GH2?

Hey Boncrek. Did you see my response to your question on Vimeo? Here's pretty much what I said:

I have an H4n mounted on the shoe of the GH2 (had to buy a shoe adapter to screw into the H4n). Then I have a specialized audio cable made by Sescom running out of the headphone jack on the H4n. The cable has a line to go into the input of the camera (which is 2.5mm) and then it has another line that has a place to plug in headphones for you to monitor the audio.

This is the cable:
http://www.sescom.com/product.asp?item=LN2MIC-ZMGH-MON

And then I have my wired lav mic plugged into the H4n's XLR input.

Edit: The link isn't working, but here it is on Markertek, which is where I bought it from:

http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Audio-Cables/DSLR-Audio-Cables/Sescom/LN2MIC-ZMGH-MON.xhtml

 

[GrahamH]

... my impression is that the GH-2 camera meters are over-reacting.

This is a useful thread - I'm working through the same questions and I'm sure others are too.

I just wanted to +1 the above quote - I've similarly found that peak levels on the meter are well below clipping on the recorded file. The GH2 has some sort of always-on AGC operating in addition to its Mic Level setting, and I assume that may be part of the explanation.

 

[Boncrek]

Here's a photo of the Zoom H4N on a Gini shoulder mount. With this setup I can operate the H4N and the GH1 with my right hand and visually monitor both of them while recording.

I guess I meant a way to rig them without beign huge and cumbersome.
I've been in some situations where even a shoulder/handheld rig would have been to big. (like at the back of a one room church against the wall)
Shoulder rigs have their place but that is why the VMP becomes such a winner because of its size and ease of use.
Its not a replacement for a true recorder and boom mic with deadcat blimp but it'l ldo for those small cramped situations where and on camera mic is needed.
At least I hope so lol

 

[Boncrek]

Hey Boncrek. Did you see my response to your question on Vimeo? Here's pretty much what I said:

I have an H4n mounted on the shoe of the GH2 (had to buy a shoe adapter to screw into the H4n). Then I have a specialized audio cable made by Sescom running out of the headphone jack on the H4n. The cable has a line to go into the input of the camera (which is 2.5mm) and then it has another line that has a place to plug in headphones for you to monitor the audio.

This is the cable:
http://www.sescom.com/product.asp?item=LN2MIC-ZMGH-MON

And then I have my wired lav mic plugged into the H4n's XLR input.

Edit: The link isn't working, but here it is on Markertek, which is where I bought it from:

http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Audio-Cables/DSLR-Audio-Cables/Sescom/LN2MIC-ZMGH-MON.xhtml

Thanks for the reply.
Not many Vimeo ppl reply to questions these days and I ask alot of questions
I would love to see a picture of this setup.

My only problem with the Zoom H4n and Tascam DR100 is that they dont play nicely with the NTG-2.
Do you know any possible workarounds for this?
So far no one online has found any worthwhile way to solve this issue without a seperate preamp.
A seperate preamp would just add to the weight of the setup and im aiming for a small lean mean capture machine.

Because of where I live (Jamaica) returning an item or even testing an item that is sold abroad is pretty hard near impossible
unless someone already has it here on the island or if i fly to america myself and test it out.
So forums and online questions and answers such as these are a Godsend.

So far I'm seeing more plusses than minusses with the GH2/VMP combo but again I am in no way saying it is a replacement to a full boom op rig with seperate recorder.
I would still like to see a picture of you're GH2/Zoom setup if possible.
Always love Rig Pictures lol

The documentary trailer I linked to above has some great audio coming from it and in the comments of the video Andre Garcia said it came straight from the VMP into the GH2.
He used it at 0dB with the GH2 mic level set at 1.
This is just right up my alley in terms of how i plan to use the mic, for impromtu interviews on the street and B-roll etc.
This has encouraged me greatly since I can't test out the mic/camera combo myself.
In more planned circumstances I will pull out the NTG-2 on my K-Tek boompole although im not sure what I'll be recording it unto *sigh*

 

[Lpowell]

My only problem with the Zoom H4n and Tascam DR100 is that they dont play nicely with the NTG-2.
Do you know any possible workarounds for this?

With a low-output shotgun like the Rode NTG-2, the 1/8th-inch stereo jack that bypasses the internal mics on the H4N can give higher gain than the XLR inputs. You'd need to use a 1.5-volt battery in the NTG-2 and obtain a dual-mono XLR to 1/8th-inch adapter cable (no impedance transformer required). The drawback is that you'd give up the balanced cables of the XLR input. I've used this setup with an Audio Technica AT897 shotgun with good results.

 

[Boncrek]

With a low-output shotgun like the Rode NTG-2, the 1/8th-inch stereo jack that bypasses the internal mics on the H4N can give higher gain than the XLR inputs. You'd need to use a 1.5-volt battery in the NTG-2 and obtain a dual-mono XLR to 1/8th-inch adapter cable (no impedance transformer required). The drawback is that you'd give up the balanced cables of the XLR input. I've used this setup with an Audio Technica AT897 shotgun with good results.

So then If i just forego the H4n altogether and use say a Tascam DR-05 I'd be in business.
Thats actually been my plan so far since the DR-05 has the option to turn off plug-in power and the Zoom H1 does not, its always on.
This plug in power creates crackling and interface problems when combined with a battery powered condensor mic like the NTG-2.
As you mentioned, the only drawback is using unbalanced 1/8" cabling. I plan to keep 'em short

*I would need an impedance transformer for the DR-05 though right as it has a high impedance input and the NTG-2 is has a low impedance out.

 

[Lpowell]

I would need an impedance transformer for the DR-05 though right as it has a high impedance input and the NTG-2 is has a low impedance out.

While the NTG-2 (using a 1.5-volt battery) would work with a high-Z input, an impedance transformer would likely be needed to boost its output to an adequate level.

 

[Boncrek]

While the NTG-2 (using a 1.5-volt battery) would work with a high-Z input, an impedance transformer would likely be needed to boost its output to an adequate level.

Just as I thought. Thanks.

The internets sure are useful and helpful!

 

[mshakeshaft]

THANKS! Loads of information to go through. I was interested to hear that the meters on the GH2 are probably not showing an accurate clipping level. I had boxed the VMP up to return it but I will check to see if clipping on the camera and clipping in Premier are the same. I will post my results.

Boncrek the link to the documentary is impressive, the sound is great.... mmmmm loads to think about.

Any other suggests/observations?

 

[mshakeshaft]

Right I have run some tests. Its two steps forward one step back! With the GH2/14-140mm lens/Rode Video Mic Pro (Camera set to 1/Mic set to 0)

When I play a sine wave into the mic and adjust the level so it clips, as soon as I press record the meters drop. I suspect this is the AGC cutting in. It automatically drops to just below clipping. In Adobe Premier depending on the frequency it shows between -6 and -8 db. So that is fine..... The bad news is that the VMP picks up noise from the 14-140 mm lens. When I switch on the camera the lens makes a low whirring sound, focusing motor I think (switching to manual focus makes no difference). This is the second lens I have had this problem with, I returned the first which was even louder. Looks like I need to move the mic away from the camera !*@!!!aaaaaa

 

[TheDingo]

Yes, definitely need a hot-shoe extension to get the mic far enough away to not pick-up lens sounds. ( or focus in manual, which is what I do 99 percent of the time )

 

[xocomil]

I'm in the same boat as you all here. I film stories for an international news channel.

Up till now I've been using a Rode VM at -20db (i think??) plugged straight into the GH1 for broll. I use my Sennheiser wireless lavs for interviews. And for my voiceover I use a Marantz 661 (combined with a Sennheiser ME64).

I've brought the Marantz out with me on shoots but find it cumbersome to set up and use (I'm in Guatemala and don't always want to be pulling gear out of my backback that's worth 4 months wages ... and people get shy getting all mic'd up sometimes).

I'm thinking to upgrade to the GH2 (sounds like its rebirth is imminent) and so am now thinking of the Beachtek DXA-SLR XLR adaptor. It's got a 2.5mm out, can power mics, and eliminates ACG (from what I understand). You can screw it onto the bottom of the cam and then mount the whole thing on a tripod/monopod/whatever.

Here's a link to a discussion: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-237436.html

I'd still use the Marantz for voiceovers/narration, and for sitdown interviews filmed indoors, but would use the Beachtek/GH2 and my ME64/lavs for anything in the field.

What you all think?

 

[Boncrek]

I'm now slightly worried about lens noises as well as I had hoped to use the Olympus 14-54mm MKII which has an electronic motor-driven focus ring.

*One possible solution for me is to change the lens to the Olympus 12-60 SWD which has a manually-coupled focus ring and wont make any nise whatsoever when focusing. There's no OIS noise as well...

 

[Lpowell]

...I had hoped to use the Olympus 14-54mm MKII which has an electronic motor-driven focus ring.

Here's a zoom test I did of the Olympus 14-54mm MKII at f3.5. It exhibits both audible clicks and visual flashes while zooming:

For my own work, I replaced the Olympus 14-54mm with a Panasonic 14-50mm f2.8-3.5 (pictured in the previous photo of my GH1/H4N rig). The 14-50mm has the most effective OIS I've seen on any Lumix lens. While it's not a perfect run-and-gun lens, it's currently the fastest OIS zoom that can do the job. The drawback of all Panasonic and Olympus Micro/Four Thirds lenses is the undesirable interaction between the zoom and focus mechanisms. These lenses will shift focus when zooming, and will breathe when focusing. The Pansonic 14-50mm f2.8-3.5 holds focus across a fairly wide zoom range, but its framing changes noticeably as it's focused. When using it, I pre-focus my shots and don't attempt to pull focus during a shot.