ARRI Launches ALEXA Mini LF

Since we are discussing Deakins and lenses. American Cinematographer had an interesting article recently titled "The Deakinzer" about the custom lenses that he used to shoot "The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford"

"For example, Roger Deakins, ASC, BSC turned to Dan Lopez and Steve Hamerski at Otto Nemenz International to customize a special set of lenses and elements for use on The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford (AC Oct. ’07). The cinematographer was looking to evoke the feeling of a “vintage” early photographic portrait lens for the period film. The resulting optics — which created a dreamlike image with a clear center and blurry, “smeared” edges — were dubbed the “Deakinizer” lenses"

https://ascmag.com/blog/shot-craft/lens-test-deakinizers

The video below shows some test clips of the lenses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hzP8X9aUKM
 
Eric Coughlin said:
What full frame cinema zooms? The only ones I'm aware of are the Angenieux EZ lenses with the full-frame conversion adapter. Aside from that, still lenses, but those aren't ideal for most high end cinema shooting.
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Zeiss CZ.2, the new Fujinon Premistas, and the updated Angenieux Ultra 12x.

SJX said:
Sure. But FF is now catching everywhere. Alexa OK. But I question advantage of FF in general. If you must boost ISO or shoot very shallow focus. Like blackmagic is normally bad in high ISO. But they also sell now FF camera I think. Other brands too.
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Again, as I mentioned before, the noise improvements you get from the larger format, cover (completely) the issue of having to bump your ISO a stop to match the DoF of S35mm.

You're not losing anything with the larger format. Only gaining.
 
Grug said:
Again, as I mentioned before, the noise improvements you get from the larger format, cover (completely) the issue of having to bump your ISO a stop to match the DoF of S35mm.

You're not losing anything with the larger format. Only gaining.
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I don't doubt this if using Alexa. But other cameras I think it is more like this:

yoclay said:
Blackmagic doesn't have anywhere near the flexibility of the Alexa. Changes in iso/exposure very quickly affect it's output and it can be quite hard at times to match a correctly exposed image from the same camera with one that is for instance, two stops under..
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SJX said:
Ok. But the head is not gimbal head is it? I never saw such big gimbal head at least. If not gimbal head then I guess the 2 guys holding stabilize it. Probably less shaky than just one guy walking and holding camera. Anybody know?
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Anybody know or want to risk a guess?

This is the rig:

1917 - In Theaters December (Behind The Scenes Featurette) [HD].mp4_snapshot_03.19_[2019.10.01_1.jpg
 
Grug said:
Zeiss CZ.2, the new Fujinon Premistas, and the updated Angenieux Ultra 12x.



Again, as I mentioned before, the noise improvements you get from the larger format, cover (completely) the issue of having to bump your ISO a stop to match the DoF of S35mm.

You're not losing anything with the larger format. Only gaining.
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The fujinon ff35 zooms are wild! Like all fujinons, can’t really see any true flaws. The only reason to not like them, is because they are so good.
 
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Grug said:
...You're not losing anything with the larger format. Only gaining.
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Me being a business person. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, I know you are so talented, I love your work so maybe I am off base as far as the business aspect?

Except money. Do you think you could bill out at a higher rate, as an owner operator, if you switched from an Alexa Mini to a Mini LF?
I know rental houses will charge a higher day/week rate for an LF but for us? Will clients pay more? Do they care? Can they see the difference? Do they take
your word for it?

Perhaps it's different at the high end but at the mid-level, none of our clients would pay more for us shooting Cinema RAW Light on the C500 MKII versus the C200 because it is FF and 6K vs. S35 and 4K.

And then the lenses. FF lenses simply cost significantly more than S35 glass, how does one amortize that expense, even if just renting lenses, much less owning?

As I always say with new "innovation", to what end?
 
SJX said:
Anybody know or want to risk a guess?

This is the rig:

View attachment 137117
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I suspect that's a Gyro being used on a purpose made rig.

One person with a conventional gimbal probably couldn't keep pace for an extended period of time over multiple takes in that terrain and those circumstances.
It may also be designed to hook easily into other transport devices during a handoff.
This is serious grip work.
 
Grug said:
Zeiss CZ.2, the new Fujinon Premistas, and the updated Angenieux Ultra 12x.



Again, as I mentioned before, the noise improvements you get from the larger format, cover (completely) the issue of having to bump your ISO a stop to match the DoF of S35mm.

You're not losing anything with the larger format. Only gaining.
Click to expand...
I found this.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/17/leitzs-e500000-full-frame-vistavision-format-prime-lenses/

Leitz (which I gather is the same as Leica) is making primes and zooms for full frame. They've got the Thalia's for the Alexa 65 size and the Summilux-C's for Super35, so these new lenses are made specifically for full frame/VistaVision formats. Pretty cool that they're doing zooms as well as then you can have matching zoom lenses instead of having to go to another brand such as Angeneuix. At 8.2 lbs the zooms are almost twice the weight of say an Angeneuix zoom of similar focal lengths for S35.

The Angenieux full frame lens is only available in the 12x which is rather large and heavy for many purposes. Perhaps they'll update their DP Optimo range.
 
puredrifting said:
Except money. Do you think you could bill out at a higher rate, as an owner operator, if you switched from an Alexa Mini to a Mini LF?
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Yeah, why not? It's a more expensive camera offering higher quality, why would any client that could afford it not be willing to pay more for higher quality?

My business model is simple; own more gear, charge higher rental rates, make more profit. From there it's just a matter of finding the clients that are willing to pay for the higher end equipment.

That's why I want to get into commercial work as a next step, as the corporate and doc world I mostly make money off of would not typically pay for say an Alexa Mini LF with a set of Arri Signature primes, while a 30 second commercial with say a budget of over $100k often would.
 
puredrifting said:
Me being a business person. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, I know you are so talented, I love your work so maybe I am off base as far as the business aspect?

Except money. Do you think you could bill out at a higher rate, as an owner operator, if you switched from an Alexa Mini to a Mini LF?
I know rental houses will charge a higher day/week rate for an LF but for us? Will clients pay more? Do they care? Can they see the difference? Do they take
your word for it?

Perhaps it's different at the high end but at the mid-level, none of our clients would pay more for us shooting Cinema RAW Light on the C500 MKII versus the C200 because it is FF and 6K vs. S35 and 4K.

And then the lenses. FF lenses simply cost significantly more than S35 glass, how does one amortize that expense, even if just renting lenses, much less owning?

As I always say with new "innovation", to what end?
Click to expand...

The actual price difference between a standard S35mm Mini with the raw and 4:3 licences (which you basically have to have), and the Mini LF (which has raw and 4:3 included in it) - is actually not that significant at all. So rental prices won't have to go up all that much (though at the moment, while there's very limited supply, they're renting at $2,000 AUD/day down here in Oz)

It is a more expensive camera though, so we do need to pass that cost on, if I do decide to get one I'd be selling it to clients on the superiority of the larger format (not the recording codec).

I think C500ii vs C200 would be exactly the same, I'd be selling the higher price to clients on the basis of the larger format, the speed-gains of the 2-10 stop internal ND filters, and the higher quality 10-bit internal recording for clients who can't deal with raw. The C500ii is cheap though, so the rates that'll go out for shouldn't give any producer used to the C300ii, FS7, F5 too much to worry about.

As for FF being more expensive? That's not true at all. In fact I've been trying to think of ANY S35mm glass that's cheaper than the FF options out there and I'm coming up blank (in terms of cinema lenses at least). Cooke S4s/S5s/Panchros, Zeiss Ultra Primes/Master Primes, Leica Summicrons/Summilux - all much more expensive than a bunch of the FF options out there (and very comparable to the pricing of the FF offerings of those same brands).

The Schneider Cine-Xenar IIIs, the Cooke Mini S4s and Sigma's 18-35mm and 50-100mm and Tokina 11-20mm are the only S35mm lenses that exist in vaguely the same price realm as the more affordable FF glass out there.

Now does anyone out there actually need more image quality than we're already getting from the current crop of cameras? Well that's a different kind of question, but I'd say no. And I'd say it firmly. I also can't see a lot producers being overly bothered about these new full-frame cameras - because mostly, they're just going to look "a bit better". And that's about it.

The sensible people out there will hold on to their current cameras and wear them into the ground, getting the maximum value from their investments.

I'm just antsy about this stuff because I poured a tonne of money into FF glass several years ago, and I've been waiting all this time to get the maximum value from THAT investment. If I owned S35mm glass, I'd be shaking my head at everyone losing their minds over the FX9/C500ii/Mini LF "obsoleting" the terrific S35mm cameras they're already using.
 
SJX said:
Yes. I thought it was a remote head or jib head. Means it's not a stabilized shot. But in trailer it looks pretty smooth. Maybe it's so heavy that 2 guys holding it look smooth enough when walking. Wonder why this instead of steadycam when camera is not that big too.
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If you watch the BTS video, they were removing it from a crane or other similar rig and then running with it. Similar to what has been done with Steadicam/crane shots where they make some big elevation change or sweeping elevated move and then the op steps off and continues the shot seamlessly. Also like we've seen done in countless Movi demo's early one where the camera was handed off to people through windows, doors, down/off balconies, etc for long 'ones'.
 
Grug said:
Get Duclos to pop a PL-mount on your CN-Es and you're off to the races!
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It's like $10k to get the Duclos PL mod for a full set of CN-e primes, and then those CN-e primes would no longer work with my EF-mount C300s. Is there some kind of technical limitation to the Alexa LF having a non-vignetting EF-mount? I feel like Arri is just being lazy here, as I know three of the Alexa Mini owners I know (and I don't know a lot of owners) both use CN-e primes and zooms with EF mounts on their Minis, just like I currently use CN-e zooms with EF mounts on my Amiras.

Another big benefit of EF-mount is the telephoto lenses available. I mean, what commonly used PL mount lens will get you to 400mm? Yeah, you're not commonly shooting telephoto for cinema applications, but it does happen on occasion, and the EF mount telephoto lenses are both more affordable and commonly available. The PL mount telephoto lenses are not only very expensive, but considering it's a rare need, that makes them even more expensive from a cost per use perspective as an owner/operator.

And another big complaint for the lens mount system is that it's not quickly swappable like I believe it is on the Sony F55. I don't know why most of the big camera companies are failing to make quickly swappable mounts for their cameras, and instead have a four screw system like Arri that takes at least a few minutes to change out and is something you'd never want to be doing in the middle of a shoot just to change lenses.

I'd like to buy an Alexa Mini LF, but due to the lack of an EF-mount, I'd have to figure out what lenses I could put on it. My CN-e zooms don't cover full frame anyway, so they could only be used at 3.2K Super35 with the original Mini EF mount, thus making the LF basically a regular Mini. I've never been a fan of the Zeiss primes, Xeens are crud, Canon is nice, the Cooke S4/is are not fast enough, and up from there the PL mount primes start getting out of my current price range.

A couple Angenieux EZ lenses ($25K) with the full frame adapter and a set of CN-e primes ($25k) if Arri came out with a proper EF-mount I feel would be a good setup to go with the Mini LF at a price that most Mini LF owner/ops could afford.
 
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Well you could always audition the Laowa expander when it comes out. I'd be interested as I have the CN-E zooms as well.
 
bill totolo said:
Well you could always audition the Laowa expander when it comes out. I'd be interested as I have the CN-E zooms as well.
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Interesting. You don't think putting a cheap Chinese focal adapter on a $75K camera and $20k lens would degrade the image? Some friends tested out a sample 25-100 lens they got from Laowa and the footage I saw from it (below) show it as a lens completely lacking sharpness in a terrible way.



 
Apparently Tokina and Duclos also have expanders available, but from what I read on Reduser they aren't very well regarded, as well as not working well when shooting faster than t/2, so not only do you loose 1-1.5 stops of light, you also can't shoot wide open on a fast prime.



So what I read was that the screw holes on the Alexa Mini LF are the same as the original Mini and Amira. So, does anyone know if that means the LPL mount would be compatible with the original Mini and Amira as well?
 
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