Anyone having card speed issues, please try again without native 24p

[Svart]

then i counter disagree. i simply can't record with those settings and was able to record fine with the lower bitrate and the 24p enabled on an ULTRA II, it's simply your card or your camera. what IS your card again? try changing your preset to standard, all zeros. see if that works. it's odd that a 3/10 are having trouble with these settings and seems to all be narrowed down their cards.

Then I counter, counter disagree! I'll go over this again, if I set Ptool to ONLY native 24p I cannot record with the STOCK settings(bitrate changes UNCHECKED IN PTOOL) on either a class 6 card or class 10 card, both of which have worked flawlessly for as long as I've had my camera. These are the stock settings and they will NOT run with the native 24p setting when capturing a static, high detail scene:

16,000,000
18,000,000
20,000,000

How can this be my cards? You are only looking at the high bitrate numbers I posted and have not read that I stated more than once that only enabling 24p(nothing else, no bitrate changes, nothing) causes card speed errors.

The fact is that the ability of the Sandisk cards to handle bitrate spikes is totally masking the fact that the native 24p setting causes extremely high bitrate spikes at any bitrate, including the stock bitrates.

At the high bitrates that I've tried, I've noticed that I can sustain 45mbit easily with my class 6 card and not get card speed errors. This means that there are NO bitrate spikes due to the fact that I never get an error even with sustained class 6 maximum bitrates into the card and can also shoot a static scene without issue. I can also increase the bitrates to the point where the class 6 card will fail due to card speed issues but the class 10 card will record fine. This also means that the bitrate written to the class 10 card is without bitrate spikes. It's all about overhead. We should NOT need to have significant overhead. This means that there is something wrong.

THE HIGH BITRATES WERE MEANT TO TEST THE CARDS TO THEIR MAXIMUM TRANSFER RATES to test their actual limits inside the camera, nothing more.

I'm not sure what else to say here. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself correctly?

Lets not get hung up on the high bitrate settings because those are a red herring to the root cause.

Those testing the Sandisk cards at very high bitrates are attempting to simulate running a slower card.

 

[nathankw]

I think part of the confusion is that there definitely are memory card errors caused by the card being too slow for the bitrate. They'll show up when you whip pan the camera around as thats when the bitrate shoots up. I've had lots of those in Mjpeg mode. When I've had them they don't seem to crash the camera - they just halt recording.

But there's a different kind of error. It still shows up as the memory card write speed warning, but it occurs only with particular kinds of static scenes, held for up to 10 seconds. I shot yesterday all day and didn't have a single one of those. But I can create one every time but filming my garden on a tripod. Since the scene is static the bitrates aren't actually that high, yet it still comes up with the error. The error completely hangs the camera requiring a battery removal.

This kind of error seems to be related to native 24/25p. Removing that I don't get those errors even at the same bitrate.

 

[cavie2002]

I can also confirm the 24p freeze. Before i had 24p and 28mbits average and it would crash with a static scene and id have to take the battery out. I then changed it to 32mbits and no 24p and i get no crashes at all.

 

[Svart]

I think part of the confusion is that there definitely are memory card errors caused by the card being too slow for the bitrate. They'll show up when you whip pan the camera around as thats when the bitrate shoots up. I've had lots of those in Mjpeg mode. When I've had them they don't seem to crash the camera - they just halt recording.

But there's a different kind of error. It still shows up as the memory card write speed warning, but it occurs only with particular kinds of static scenes, held for up to 10 seconds. I shot yesterday all day and didn't have a single one of those. But I can create one every time but filming my garden on a tripod. Since the scene is static the bitrates aren't actually that high, yet it still comes up with the error. The error completely hangs the camera requiring a battery removal.

This kind of error seems to be related to native 24/25p. Removing that I don't get those errors even at the same bitrate.

Yes, when I increased the bitrates to the maximum the cards could handle, I would get the *real* card speed errors. When enabling native 24p I would get the error at any bitrate, even those well within the bitrates the cards can handle.

So yes, it's two different problems with the same outcome, however they can be differentiated by the fact that the card speed error that happens with high bitrates and NO native 24p can be exited from and the camera turned off normally. The error with the native 24p enabled the camera locks up completely.

Can someone with a Sandisk card, do a test for me?

I need two files, one with native 24p, one without, from a static tripod shot of the same high-detailed scene. I'd like the Native 24p file to have a bitrate that is higher than stock but not to the point where it give the card speed error. We need a file that is complete. I would like to see what the actual file difference is when the files are analyzed.

 

[UncleBenji1977]

Now I'm getting issues... I'm on the B settings after getting card read errors after 5 seconds on the C settings... Of course I'm running a efilm pro class 6 card. So does the majority feel it has to do with card speed?

 

[Svart]

Now I'm getting issues... I'm on the B settings after getting card read errors after 5 seconds on the C settings... Of course I'm running a efilm pro class 6 card. So does the majority feel it has to do with card speed?

What other settings are you running? Are you running the native 24p patch? Did you change GOP settings?

I've been able to run bitrates up to the maximum ratings of all the cards I've tried as long as Native 24p isn't checked and GOP isn't changed.

 

[x_WOrPIG_x]

Yes, when I increased the bitrates to the maximum the cards could handle, I would get the *real* card speed errors. When enabling native 24p I would get the error at any bitrate, even those well within the bitrates the cards can handle.

So yes, it's two different problems with the same outcome, however they can be differentiated by the fact that the card speed error that happens with high bitrates and NO native 24p can be exited from and the camera turned off normally. The error with the native 24p enabled the camera locks up completely.

Can someone with a Sandisk card, do a test for me?

I need two files, one with native 24p, one without, from a static tripod shot of the same high-detailed scene. I'd like the Native 24p file to have a bitrate that is higher than stock but not to the point where it give the card speed error. We need a file that is complete. I would like to see what the actual file difference is when the files are analyzed.

What Setting should I clock in for Ptool? C setting?

 

[Svart]

Try "b" or "c" since those seem to work for most people.


Thanks!

 

[Park Edwards]

Then I counter, counter disagree! I'll go over this again, if I set Ptool to ONLY native 24p I cannot record with the STOCK settings(bitrate changes UNCHECKED IN PTOOL) on either a class 6 card or class 10 card, both of which have worked flawlessly for as long as I've had my camera. These are the stock settings and they will NOT run with the native 24p setting when capturing a static, high detail scene:

16,000,000
18,000,000
20,000,000

How can this be my cards? You are only looking at the high bitrate numbers I posted and have not read that I stated more than once that only enabling 24p(nothing else, no bitrate changes, nothing) causes card speed errors.

The fact is that the ability of the Sandisk cards to handle bitrate spikes is totally masking the fact that the native 24p setting causes extremely high bitrate spikes at any bitrate, including the stock bitrates.

At the high bitrates that I've tried, I've noticed that I can sustain 45mbit easily with my class 6 card and not get card speed errors. This means that there are NO bitrate spikes due to the fact that I never get an error even with sustained class 6 maximum bitrates into the card and can also shoot a static scene without issue. I can also increase the bitrates to the point where the class 6 card will fail due to card speed issues but the class 10 card will record fine. This also means that the bitrate written to the class 10 card is without bitrate spikes. It's all about overhead. We should NOT need to have significant overhead. This means that there is something wrong.

THE HIGH BITRATES WERE MEANT TO TEST THE CARDS TO THEIR MAXIMUM TRANSFER RATES to test their actual limits inside the camera, nothing more.

I'm not sure what else to say here. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself correctly?

Lets not get hung up on the high bitrate settings because those are a red herring to the root cause.

Those testing the Sandisk cards at very high bitrates are attempting to simulate running a slower card.

I fully understand what you're saying. I was one of the first people to test the native 24p patches, it worked flawlessly. just because your cards have the magical numbers 6 and 10, doesn't mean anything. and you still haven't posted the type of SanDisk card you have. Just its speeds. I too have a SandDisk Ultra II and it's fine.

 

[Mike@AF]

I fully understand what you're saying. I was one of the first people to test the native 24p patches, it worked flawlessly. just because your cards have the magical numbers 6 and 10, doesn't mean anything. and you still haven't posted the type of SanDisk card you have. Just it's speeds. I too have a SandDisk Ultra II and it's fine.

I disagree that 24pN works flawlessly. Clips are showing up at 23.971fps instead of the proper 23.976fps. That's a flaw. I'm also experiencing the issue with 24pN where I can't record with certain bitrate settings. Remove 24pN and those settings work fine. If anything we should be getting better performance or more stable writing to the card with 24pN because there's less frames per second which means the camera and codec should have more time to write those frames to the card. But we're seeing the opposite. That's a flaw.

 

[Park Edwards]

the file records at 23.976, just reads .971...straight from tester13's words. so yes, it works. that's really unfortunate it's not working for you guys.

 

[PappasArts]

My Settings are:

54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000
GOP: 15 - Deselected as it's 15 anyways.
24P NATIVE
Sandisk Extreme 8Gig class 10 and Kingston 4gb Class 6

So far ( fingers crossed ) No issues at all; and have shot well over an hour of detailed stuff.


Pappas

 

[Mike@AF]

the file records at 23.976, just reads .971...straight from tester13's words. so yes, it works. that's really unfortunate it's not working for you guys.

I understand, but the fact that it reads as 23.971 and needs to be fixed for certain NLE's is a flaw. On any other camera that shoots 24p natively this doesn't happen. And all anyone is doing right now is testing. Implemented into an actual project, who knows what the 23.971 reading could cause, especially on longer form projects. We might see audio syncing issues, encoding and transcoding issues, color correction issues (has anyone put any of the 24pN footage through Color or Motion or any other similar apps without first adjusting to read as 23.976?). Who knows what it could cause.

If it was just one person that was experiencing this particular 24pN issue with it not working, then I'd say it's an issue with the card or something like that. But multiple people exhibiting the same result with different cards and a different assortment of settings that otherwise work without 24pN indicates there's something wrong.

Just because it works for some people doesn't mean it's flawless. It has to work for all people in nearly all situations to be flawless.

 

[Park Edwards]

so is AVCHD a flaw, because some NLE's don't work with that codec? case in point. just because your card isn't working, or others, doesn't mean it's a problem with the patch. especially since a good dozen people couldn't even figure out how to update it to begin with. but, good luck. hope you guys figure something out. i'm glad my card's working.

 

[svecher]

My Settings are:

54.000.000
58.000.000
68.000.000
GOP: 15 - Deselected as it's 15 anyways.
24P NATIVE
Sandisk Extreme 8Gig class 10 and Kingston 4gb Class 6

So far ( fingers crossed ) No issues at all; and have shot well over an hour of detailed stuff.

Pappas

Good to know. I'll try those too. Do you mind posting StreamEye screenshot for such a stream.

May I suggest the next test? These choke my card (with 24P Native patch).
60000000
62000000
70000000

 

[svecher]

so is AVCHD a flaw, because some NLE's don't work with that codec? case in point. just because your card isn't working, or others, doesn't mean it's a problem with the patch. especially since a good dozen people couldn't even figure out how to update it to begin with. but, good luck. hope you guys figure something out. i'm glad my card's working.

Alright, time out. Please for a moment forget about issues with the cards and read this report.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2023389&postcount=6

 

[Mike@AF]

so is AVCHD a flaw, because some NLE's don't work with that codec? case in point. just because your card isn't working, or others, doesn't mean it's a problem with the patch. especially since a good dozen people couldn't even figure out how to update it to begin with. but, good luck. hope you guys figure something out. i'm glad my card's working.

No AVCHD is working as it was designed. It's not meant to be used in an NLE, which is why we transcode to something that is good for editing.

 

[PappasArts]

Good to know. I'll try those too. Do you mind posting StreamEye screenshot for such a stream.

May I suggest the next test? These choke my card (with 24P Native patch).
60000000
62000000
70000000

Hey svecher,

I tried these- and it was with 24PN- Camera crashed-

I was hoping to see this work. I didn't want to use 60i and preferred 24PN for the known reason as native is better.

Pappas

 

[svecher]

Hey svecher,
I tried these- and it was with 24PN- Camera crashed-
I was hoping to see this work. I didn't want to use 60i and preferred 24PN for the known reason as native is better.

I prefer to have native progressive output as well, but with native patch it seem we hit speed breaking point at a lower value than when using 60i-wrapper-mode. I'll bet a $100 that with those same exact settings and no 24p native patch your cam will record just fine.

 

[PappasArts]

I prefer to have native progressive output as well, but with native patch it seem we hit speed breaking point at a lower value than when using 60i-wrapper-mode. I'll bet a $100 that with those same exact settings and no 24p native patch your cam will record just fine.

'

Hey Svecher,

Do we take a quality hit, by not going 24PN- Or is there no difference?

44mbits in "C" settings...

With these settings- What is Mbits at?
60000000
62000000
70000000


Pappas