GH2 Anyone else looking to upgrade their GH2 for the Blackmagic Camera?

[Kholi]

Hey, like they say, I pixel peep. And, I'm probably one of the biggest resolution advocates on the boards. I said the MKIII videos posted were sharpened, was crazy for saying that... until people got their cameras and needed sharpening to tutorials.

If it weren't resolving GH2 or better, I would be pretty vocal about it. There are over a handful of key shots throughout each of the videos that shows, despite the extra dose of vimeo compression (six minute videos) as much as--or again to me, greater amounts of detail than the GH2's netting. Just without the added benefit/disadvantage of aliasing.

Whichever way people want to look at it.

 

[Fohdeesha]

Well, you're one of the (very) few people on this board I trust in regards to imaging, so maybe I'm missing something. I'll keep my eyes out for any more frames posted around the net.

Also, you mention aliasing in the gh2. I've only had mine for about a month now, but with sharpening turned all the way down in camera and running driftwoods Sedna matrices..I cannot seem to find any? Maybe I need to shoot with it more. Going to use it mixed with a bit of f3 for the dvxfest that just started, should be exciting.

 

[Kholi]

I really don't want to go into the math here and you're a really great guy kholi, but it seems pretty apparent the gh2 is out resolving this camera. There's just something about the gh2, spatial resolution wise. I shot with an ex1 for years, shoot with an f3 at work. I picked up a gh2 last month and even after turning sharpening all the way down in camera, I still cannot get over the uncomfortable fact it is quite clearly resolving more information, and looking smoother at the same time, than a $7k 3 chip camera that I have been so close to for so long.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing.

But, I'm not talking about sharpness. I'm talking about actual resolution.

Even still, you can't turn sharpening all the way off or down. -2 still has sharpening, it isn't off, it's just at it's lowest point per given film mode. Check standard versus Smooth, let me know how -2 sharpening there looks versus -2 sharpening on Standard. Only takes shooting something and a blow up to see how the "appearance" of aliasing is increased due to sharpness.

I'm not talking about On top of that, BM, like red, is providing the count of all the total photosites on their sensor. That is before debayer. As great as this camera is and the things it's going to do to this market, due to simple math it cannot resolve anywhere near 2k of information. People automatically associate reds "5k" and BM's "2.5k" numbers with the resolution of the finished, debayered film, but these are bayer pattern cameras, and that is not how it works. Have you seen 4k or 5k red footage at 100% zoom?

I shoot RED ritually. Nothing new. I know the math, know the numbers. We're not talking about 2.5K, we're talking about final delivery of a 1080/2K product, minus aliasing (depending on how you scale in post). That's the entire point of shooting 4K~4.5K, for a 2K master. Or, 5K, for a 4K(ish master).

Not much to say about it, other than there's plenty of detail once you use Sinc or Lanczos and scale it down to 2k/1080.

Of course, that's what it's made for.

It's pretty apparent on wide shots in regards to the BM. I'm not talking about vimeo footage, I'm talking about the full res stills provided.

Yeah, different eyes, becaue what I saw was detail with the lack of aliasing coming from a sub par zoom.

But blackmagic went with the sensor they could source, and it should make a great camera. On top of that, dynamic range is far, far more important than resolution, and this camera is worlds ahead of the gh2 in that area

We can always revisit it when charts, tests, etc hit. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. It's clear that I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing, and vice versa, so the only thing that will tell are charts.

 

[Kholi]

Also, you mention aliasing in the gh2. I've only had mine for about a month now, but with sharpening turned all the way down in camera and running driftwoods Sedna matrices..I cannot seem to find any? Maybe I need to shoot with it more. Going to use it mixed with a bit of f3 for the dvxfest that just started, should be exciting.

It's everywhere when you actually know how to spot it. The sharper the glass, the worse it becomes. It's not as bad as Canon cams (pre-MKIII) but it's there.

 

[Kholi]

And I am keeping my GH2, because it's still out of its price league by miles. Despite the aliasing, it still looks great to me and will be a good camera to have around for 60P (since the Magic Cam lacks such) and other things.

 

[Fohdeesha]

Well, I stare at blown up, scaled up, scaled down and all around footage in a Scratch suite every day, so I'd say I'm pretty familiar with how to differentiate actual spatial information from aliasing, sharpening, and compression artifacts. I just really haven't seen any BM framegrabs that have shown me what I'm used to. I would blame it on the glass, but he would have to be using some pretty old canon glass if it's impeding on 1000 lines

 

[Kholi]

Well, I stare at blown up, scaled up, scaled down and all around footage in a Scratch suite every day, so I'd say I'm pretty familiar with how to differentiate actual spatial information from aliasing, sharpening, and compression artifacts. I just really haven't seen any BM framegrabs that have shown me what I'm used to. I would blame it on the glass, but he would have to be using some pretty old canon glass if it's impeding on 1000 lines

For sure. Try looking at a blown up GH2 Hack image if you haven't, in that case, and let me know. You should be able to spot it in a heartbeat.

 

[Fohdeesha]

Also, what are some good subjects to try and bring out aliasing on the gh2? I don't have the sharpest glass in the world for it, but I really just have no seen any yet.

Edit: just saw your most recent post. I have definitely come across aliasing in the stock firmware and the EOSHD unified, but there's something about the Sedna A matrices that doesn't exactly smooth is out, but seems to alter the way the pixel binning is coming up with a final image. I seriously recommend it if you haven't given it a try

 

[Kholi]

Also, what are some good subjects to try and bring out aliasing on the gh2? I don't have the sharpest glass in the world for it, but I really just have no seen any yet.

F4, medium shots with a lot of hair (especially black/dark hair), some cases power lines, bricks from a distance, semi-tight patterns in clothes, edges of vehicles or similar objects, patterns in wood... definitely more that I've encountered but can't remember. Hair is a big one, and it was when I realize that (yet again) Barry was right.

Shooting B-Cam on a hair commercial showed aliasing was alive and well in the GH2. Switching to ETC mode (of course) got rid of it.

 

[Kholi]

Edit: just saw your most recent post. I have definitely come across aliasing in the stock firmware and the EOSHD unified, but there's something about the Sedna A matrices that doesn't exactly smooth is out, but seems to alter the way the pixel binning is coming up with a final image. I seriously recommend it if you haven't given it a try

You know... I can't believe I'm saying this, but the hacks have gotten so ... like... well I've gone from Quantum to the Sednas and I can't even tell a difference in anything. The lowlight hacks, patches, all that stuff, didn't see anything but macroblocking when messing withthe footage.

Quantum X was my limit, and unless he suddenly springs 4:2:2 from the camera, I'm done with the patches.

I also can't believe I'm about to say this... but, did you shoot any definitive tests between Sedna, stock, and say Quantum? A chart (shudder...) ugh..

 

[Fohdeesha]

Hehe. I'm definitely done with the patches as well, I shot stock, then eoshd unified, then sedna A. It's as good as it's going to get for me. I could definitely tell a difference in banding over 90~IRE with eos, I would go to grab a key on the sky for a secondary grade and the matte would just show lines and blocks like I was playing checkers. Problem disappeared with sedna. I hate to say it but...there's a whole lot of hacks being pushed around....by people that aren't well, let's say versed in compression technology...there's a lot more to a compression algorithm than the bitrate of its output, Driftwood is the only man I've seen with matrices that make sense for a given target bitrate.

Haven't shot any charts. Lowlight patches!? The only way I've seen patches effect lowlight capability, is it's encoding the noise more accurately and retaining more detail, giving Neat Video more information to work with

Keep in mind I've had this camera literally 3 weeks, so I'm sure I'll run into these issues eventually

 

[Kholi]

Hehe. I'm definitely done with the patches as well, I shot stock, then eoshd unified, then sedna A. It's as good as it's going to get for me.

Same. I may try Sedna again just off of your recommendation, to see if I can pixel peep anything different but my first time it was a definite no go for me. Especially when I walked outside at night to see the change between the two.

I could definitely tell a difference in banding over 90~IRE with eos, I would go to grab a key on the sky for a secondary grade and the matte would just show lines and blocks like I was playing checkers.

Exactly what I saw in two of the driftwood patches. Can't remember the names, but they were recent ones. Nope! took 'em off.

Haven't shot any charts. Lowlight patches!? The only way I've seen patches effect lowlight capability, is it's encoding the noise more accurately and retaining more detail, giving Neat Video more information to work with

One thing's for sure, GH2 footage is great with denoise if you grab the right mix for each scene. Finally, FINALLY found the settings for denoiser, looks a lot better for lowlight yet sadly some of the finest details get lost in the greatest compression. oh well. xD

Keep in mind I've had this camera literally 3 weeks, so I'm sure I'll run into these issues eventually

Let me know what you find. If you're working on Scratch and you're used to it, you're bound to spot something that I haven't.

I'll also take a look at Sedna again. Thanks mmaaannnnn

 

[Kholi]

Oh! about the glass thing:

What I'm referring to is how the center performance of a zoom or any lens may or may not lack. Some glass has great center performance and poor edge, some the opposite (as you know of course). What it looked like to me, having been shooting GH2 and then GH2 ETC mode, was the glass' center performance actually not being very great. If you compound that with ND (although I don't think John was using any) and especially a fader, you're going to see a soft image.

Fader + Sigma 20/1.8@2~4 + Gh2 = soft.

You need to to do some sharpening to reduce the appearance abberation going on, pretty much adding (I think this is the right way to put it) micro-contrast back into the image? Someone needs to check my usage, please.

I'm not a fan of sharpening in post. Not at all, because it tends to exaggerate aliasing, creates halos around edges, so on and so forth. But, I've had success sharpening footage from the Sigma 20/1.8 to a degree where I am finally okay with sharpening for certain cases. This camera shouldn't see any aliasing coming from 2.5K > 2k/1080...so... It's a good thing that Resolve has sharpening tools, because I imagine for once I'll actually be using those...

Ugh...

 

[Aki_Hartikainen]

Plenty of aliasing in the 4k images of GH cameras as well. Below 200% crops from a 4k RAW image:

First version is how the image loads in Silkypix RAW processor with default settings. The settings for sharpness read "Natural" (I had dialed down the sharpness in camera). The lower version is with two sharpness switches turned to least amount in Silkypix program.

That can not be done for video, so it is assumed the "Natural" settings prevail for video. Thus you have the top version sharpening for video images always on by default in GH cameras. Certain lens and filter conditions make the aliasing more visible.

Needless to mention you could make a nice 2k or HD scaled down version from the lower image but not nearly as nice from the top image. And the top image is what we have for video by default.

 

[Kholi]

Here's a page that illustrates what I may not be putting into words [properly]:

http://www.juzaphoto.com/article.php?l=en&article=32

It's the lens John shot with and two others, similar, at various focal lengths, showing center crops.

Now, how great of an effect it will have is to be seen, but again, I've experienced it on the GH2 and now that I think about it, shooting high speed with SLR glass on epic/red.

I suppose this is me putting in another vote for M4/3 glass, which will be more closely designed for the application.


Edit: here's a more drastic comparison between the Tokina 11-16/2.8 and the Nikon 12-24/2.8

 

[Aki_Hartikainen]

It's the lens that makes it apparent, but the aliasing is caused by very deep level sharpening in-camera that possibly can not be turned off from the camera settings.

The best lenses are superior to many bundled lenses, so they built these sharpening schemes in the cameras. Possibly controlled by the "shoot w/o lens" switch in the camera menu. Using a decent lens makes the aliasing by sharpening more apparent. I'm thinking that recording on external harddrive from HDMI might be the solution. Then bring the image sequence to Silkypix and turn any sharpening off to have the most organic source to work with. If that is allowed for compressed images, I have not tried yet.

 

[Fohdeesha]

I'm thinking that recording on external harddrive from HDMI might be the solution.

not with the gh2, nope.

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/56317#Comment_56317

the hdmi out on a gh2 is absolutely useless for anything other than pulling focus

 

[Kholi]

My bad, Aki-- I was referring to why the images from the Magic Cam may have appeared soft or lacking detail. You're right about the aliasing in the GH2, it's just hard to spot so everyone assumes it's not there.

I didn't really start seeing it until around February, m'self.

 

[Aki_Hartikainen]

My bad, Aki-- I was referring to why the images from the Magic Cam may have appeared soft or lacking detail. You're right about the aliasing in the GH2, it's just hard to spot so everyone assumes it's not there.

I didn't really start seeing it until around February, m'self.

Like I said, you need a sharp lens to begin to see aliasing. The sharper it gets, the more it becomes a problem. This allows the camera makers to save on the lens department, which they do to rediculous amount these days. Could not do that in the slide era.

Quite possibly you install a modern Pana-Leica, the sharpening is turned off.

 

[Aki_Hartikainen]

not with the gh2, nope.

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/56317#Comment_56317

the hdmi out on a gh2 is absolutely useless for anything other than pulling focus

I'm still hoping they would fix that with a firmware update. Why the m4/3 lenses seem ideal for these cameras is partly caused by controlling the in-camera sharpening. This can not be done for non-m4/3 lens, so a sharp lens is stuck with unneeded sharpening.