Another test -- getting to the bottom of resolved detail

[USLatin]

And that's what I wrote. Buildings are not part of nature, it's man made. Hence it will mess up a 7D sometimes.

And what does it matter if it is nature or not, does it matter if it is West or East of Greenwich? A camera should be able to shoot A and B, whatever they may be, without introducing things that where not there... or it stops being a camera.

You don't even need patterns, just shoot sand, leaves, anything with lots of fine detail. It may be harder to notice than in a grid of equal frequency detail, but it is there.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 7D, but if we want to pretend they are video cameras, then we need to treat them as such. To be a video camera it needs a solution.

 

[Alpha Beta Omega]

Is there a camera that can accomplish everything without flaws or quirks? I'm just saying that charts tells us that aliasing and moire is bad on the 7D but when capturing real life, and especially things that's not man made (except humans), it looks great.

I would never recommend certain angles to shoot in because it might look weird or be difficult to shoot and I would steer clear of things I know will trigger aliasing/moire badly with a 7D.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry,

Is there a reason why you chose the 7D over the GH1 to do these tests?

Sure -- nobody cares about the GH1, it's all Canon, all the time, left and right and up and down and top and bottom. So if that's what folks want to use, and that's where their interests lie, that's what I'll test and report on.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Being an avid 7D shooter myself and going this weekend to a night festival with a 30mm F1.4 lens I can say that there is no lack of frustration with the 7D and all my tests with alias/moire have had similar results, meaning I cannot find a good set of solutions that work most of the time.

I think the major frustration is in not seeing the problem till I get home. I am about to invest in the DP1 720p field monitor so I can at least play back the footage and see if I get rainbows. If I could at least see it I could then do something to prevent it, but on camera, there is no way to zoom in to recorded footage to play it back at 1:1 to see if there are problems. Not that this is a solution, but just makes it absolutely worse.

One of the things I have hoped for is if Canon would offer a sensor with a OLPF designed for 1080p or if someone figured out how to do this aftermarket. Sure, it won't fix 720p mode and will make the camera part pretty much useless, but I have a D90 that I feel takes better pictures anyways

I think the most frustrating thing is that it is SO close to something so awesome to work with. I've done paid gigs with the 7D and knowing its limtations I've gotten say 80% usable footage (and I always overshoot footage with it because of this). And not all of this is moire/aliasing either, it's jello as well.

What I appreciate more than anything about Barry's work is there are a lot of us that are not wanting to drop money yet on a new camera that in my opinion is going to be obsolete in a few months in terms of ability versus cost. The 7D is a stop gap between our HVX200a and the Scarlet Fixed. For now, it is holding us over but by NO MEANS is it an easy period For me also, the 7D will still get used for shallow DoF until I can get a Scarlet S35 so I will get similar results to the 7D with my lens collection.

So in other words, people are trying to make usable solutions until the cameras they really want come out and not the other outdated crap that companies are still ripping you off for (and I honestly feel a lot of cameras are ripping people off for what you get).

 

[Barry_Green]

Is there a camera that can accomplish everything without flaws or quirks?

Pretty much, yes. But they cost $$$$$.

I'm just saying that charts tells us that aliasing and moire is bad on the 7D but when capturing real life, and especially things that's not man made (except humans), it looks great.

Charts tell us how the camera performs. And yes, in most scenarios the 7D does look fantastic. Especially the shallower the DOF, the better it looks. But on wide-angle deep-focus shots, it looks its worst, and is not anywhere near on par with a regular 1/4" video camera.

I would never recommend certain angles to shoot in because it might look weird or be difficult to shoot and I would steer clear of things I know will trigger aliasing/moire badly with a 7D.

Yep, that is what we have to do. I hate being limited by what a camera can or can't do, and I put up with it in the GH1/7D because of the price tag; they're way better than they should be at this price, and if they've got flaws, that's what happens when you get such a low price. So I'm trying to point out where those areas are where it doesn't perform well, and perhaps find out what solutions we can offer folks to avoid getting "caught" by the flaws.

 

[Barry_Green]

I think the major frustration is in not seeing the problem till I get home. I am about to invest in the DP1 720p field monitor so I can at least play back the footage and see if I get rainbows. If I could at least see it I could then do something to prevent it, but on camera, there is no way to zoom in to recorded footage to play it back at 1:1 to see if there are problems. Not that this is a solution, but just makes it absolutely worse.

Absolutely the truth. Absolutely 100% what infuriates me about using this thing; when it's right it's oh so right, but when it's wrong you don't even know until it's too late. I hate that.

One of the things I have hoped for is if Canon would offer a sensor with a OLPF designed for 1080p or if someone figured out how to do this aftermarket. Sure, it won't fix 720p mode and will make the camera part pretty much useless, but I have a D90 that I feel takes better pictures anyways

Shaoholica(sp?) is working on that right now for us... :thumbsup:

So in other words, people are trying to make usable solutions until the cameras they really want come out

I agree 100% with this.

and not the other outdated crap that companies are still ripping you off for (and I honestly feel a lot of cameras are ripping people off for what you get).

Don't know what you mean by that though. Nobody can "rip you off" without your permission; just don't buy what they're offering if it doesn't do what you want. But there are a lot of products out on the market (EX1, HPX300, HPX170, HM700, etc) that cost more than an SLR and do a ton of things that the SLR doesn't, so I don't at all consider them a "ripoff"... they're just a totally different market.

 

[Martti Ekstrand]

Sure -- nobody cares about the GH1, it's all Canon, all the time, left and right and up and down and top and bottom. So if that's what folks want to use, and that's where their interests lie, that's what I'll test and report on.

I would actually be interested in seeing how that church looks with both a GH1 and a good camcorder (or several) - it seems a perfect test object for aliasing and moire problems.

 

[Barry_Green]

There may come a day when I go back down there to try all the various techniques; when/if I do, I might take along the HMC40; carrying more than two cameras in downtown Wilmington might be a bit more of an "invitation" to the "street entrepreneurs" than I'd be comfortable in issuing...

 

[Rick Burnett]

Don't know what you mean by that though. Nobody can "rip you off" without your permission; just don't buy what they're offering if it doesn't do what you want. But there are a lot of products out on the market (EX1, HPX300, HPX170, HM700, etc) that cost more than an SLR and do a ton of things that the SLR doesn't, so I don't at all consider them a "ripoff"... they're just a totally different market.

This is mostly frustration speaking in terms of cost. Look at how much it costs to get a video camera preDSLR video that has the ability to change lens. I've certainly used 35mm adapters on both an HVX200a and an HV30 to play around with and while absolutely neat, there are lots of issues, including the loss of light which most cameras are already horrible at night (which is an ABSOLUTE beauty with the 7D I must say). I have been in the market for a camera with changeable lens, it's just until recently, that market was not aimed at me!

Being a chip designer and programmer myself, I also get frustrated with the lack of features on cameras that are indeed just software enhancements. The D90 and lack of exposure control. The 7D and need for an external intervalometer. The Canon and gain control on the audio. (This list can go on for days). There are a lot of areas where I see added features that don't make sense for the cost difference.

I'm glad a company like RED is going to help bring all the costs down and make some of this other technology (beyond RED's) available to more people IMO. I sure would have NEVER bought a Canon DSLR had it not had the video capability it does now, so I also hope this as well opens up a lot of eyes at Canon and their next offerings just take that to the next level. Even with the Scarlet if Canon had a newer body with better statistics in the same cost range I'm sure I would upgrade if the major flaws were dealt with.

Truth is, we are at the foothill of some amazing technologies being deployed right now so honestly, this is all early adopter pain If I could ask one thing of Canon/Panasonic/Nikon is have more dialog with the regular user. I can talk to engineering at Red and ask questions/voice concerns. With Canon, I got an automated response email and that was it.

But with your (and everyone else's) tests and experimentation, it goes further than that. (1) I am sure people at Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Red, etc read these boards. If not, then they are missing a HUGE amount of free research into usage. It shows what frustrates us. Who wouldn't run out to the store if Canon had a 7D2 that said "Now, with no Moire Moire!"

Rant off now

But again, I just want to thank you for your continued work with the 7D. I use your research and pass it on to others regularly.

 

[Rick Burnett]

There may come a day when I go back down there to try all the various techniques; when/if I do, I might take along the HMC40; carrying more than two cameras in downtown Wilmington might be a bit more of an "invitation" to the "street entrepreneurs" than I'd be comfortable in issuing...

Wilmington, NC?

 

[Barry_Green]

Look at how much it costs to get a video camera preDSLR video that has the ability to change lens.

But that hasn't changed. How many low-cost video cameras are there where you can interchange a VIDEO lens? None. You're talking about a still camera that uses still-camera lenses, that's a whole different world. Power zoom? Holding focus throughout the entire range? That's not apples to apples, there are many reasons why the video cameras cost more. They DO more.

Being a chip designer and programmer myself, I also get frustrated with the lack of features on cameras that are indeed just software enhancements. The D90 and lack of exposure control. The 7D and need for an external intervalometer. The Canon and gain control on the audio. (This list can go on for days). There are a lot of areas where I see added features that don't make sense for the cost difference.

But are you a manufacturer? Unless you manufacture the products and are responsible for all the issues end to end, it's not fair to say what the cost difference would be.

They pay for the marketing and the support staff, the manual writers and the troubleshooting, the repairs and the upgrades and the fixes and the testing... Simpler products cost less to support. Manufacturers make these products with the features they do, because they're designed to a target market at a target price point. The frustration you're experiencing is because these cameras are NOT made for us. We are not the target market. The target market doesn't care about a headphone jack or disabling AGC, they WANT AGC and they don't even usually need to plug a mic in.

If you want something aimed at us, it's going to have to be a purpose-built product, and you can bet your shorts it'll be more expensive. We're a smaller market, we cost more per unit in R&D and support costs, so it will cost more.

I'm glad a company like RED is going to help bring all the costs down and make some of this other technology (beyond RED's) available to more people IMO.

But -- see, this is so funny -- all the blather about Red recently has been how they're OVERpriced! Which I think is also ridiculous, but hey... and keep in mind, Red is totally NOT doing what the other manufacturers are. Red is off in their own little corner of the world. It just so happens to be OUR corner (meaning, the indie and digital film market). So yes, a Scarlet is going to cost a lot more than a DSLR, but it will do what the DSLR won't.

If I could ask one thing of Canon/Panasonic/Nikon is have more dialog with the regular user. I can talk to engineering at Red and ask questions/voice concerns. With Canon, I got an automated response email and that was it.

But with Panasonic you get the product manager who is responsible for all the AVCCAM and the handheld P2 products, right here on the forum. And not just the USA head, we also get the heads of New Zealand and Australia, and we've had occasional participation from the bosses at Panasonic Europe. So complaining about access to Canon or Nikon, I can see that, but Panasonic's the most accessible/most visible company on the web.

But again, I just want to thank you for your continued work with the 7D. I use your research and pass it on to others regularly.

Glad to help!

 

[Barry_Green]

Wilmington, NC?

Yep.

 

[Rick Burnett]

But that hasn't changed. How many low-cost video cameras are there where you can interchange a VIDEO lens? None. You're talking about a still camera that uses still-camera lenses, that's a whole different world. Power zoom? Holding focus throughout the entire range? That's not apples to apples, there are many reasons why the video cameras cost more. They DO more.

I agree with you it is not apples to apples in this regard, I think there is a BIG hole in the middle of camera manufacturing when it comes to digital, but I think that hole is shrinking. It's no different than the audio work say 20 years ago when digital audio started to become prevalent. As a whole, digital technology at the middle ground is cheaper with the same capabilities as the higher end. But in the beginning, consumer digital wasn't very good and was a lot cheaper than professional digital equipment at the time. That closing of the gap I can see happening in the digital video as well over the next few years.

I cannot believe I personally know 5 people who bought a 7D within the last month because of the quality of results. I have never seen so many people buy the same camera. Not even including the people I know with a 5D or 1D (but they are mostly photographers). I think there is a huge market building for better than HV30 mentality.

Still doesn't mean I won't be frustrated about it though!

But are you a manufacturer? Unless you manufacture the products and are responsible for all the issues end to end, it's not fair to say what the cost difference would be.

Actually, I do have a lot of insight into manufacturing and have actually questioned a few camera companies I have worked for on their chip design why certain features were missing. Most companies I have worked for, which I am not knocking cause I understand, is what is going to give us the best return, not what makes the best product. It's just the way of business.

As I said and you reiterated, we are not of the same market. I contend that the 7D (and GH1) have shown there is a big market to be had that so far has been largely untapped. I think a lot of the DIY 35mm threads all over the place may have helped some of that. Maybe I should rephrase my feelings on cost. Not that I feel that I am getting ripped off, but that the products don't exist for my target marke with a price range reasonable to what I am getting.

But -- see, this is so funny -- all the blather about Red recently has been how they're OVERpriced! Which I think is also ridiculous, but hey... and keep in mind, Red is totally NOT doing what the other manufacturers are. Red is off in their own little corner of the world. It just so happens to be OUR corner (meaning, the indie and digital film market). So yes, a Scarlet is going to cost a lot more than a DSLR, but it will do what the DSLR won't.

Wow, and here I find the cost of say the Scarlet Fixed to be very inexpensive for what you get. A 3K camera that can shoot 130fps! I compare that to the HVX200a which is like $6k I think we paid for it. Of course, compared to the 1D they are not that far off, but then again, we are talking 2/3 sensor size.

But yeah, I have seen people complain too.

I will still say, regardless, that Canon charging $60 for an external intervalometer is a ripoff. I should be able to do timelapse IN camera like my $100 pocket cam. I can only hope the Magic Lantern people get the 7D worked out soon!!!

But with Panasonic you get the product manager who is responsible for all the AVCCAM and the handheld P2 products, right here on the forum. And not just the USA head, we also get the heads of New Zealand and Australia, and we've had occasional participation from the bosses at Panasonic Europe. So complaining about access to Canon or Nikon, I can see that, but Panasonic's the most accessible/most visible company on the web.

Given I do not use the GH1 or follow too many threads on it (except comparisons to the 7D) I was not aware. That is AWESOME then. As far as Canon or Nikon, it's like talking to the dark! I will keep that in mind then for sure.

As pertaining to the DP1 I mentioned earlier, their company is in the town I work in so if I pick one up, I will be sure to do some 7D tests with it to see if it is useful. I am going to bring some printed test charts and my camera to their office to test.