Another reason to buy 7D and not t2i

[ICD Films]

Okay, I'm not a t2i hater... I'm getting some fantastic images out of it... and I do NOT own a 7D - however, today I experienced a really annoying issue that I never even thought of before.

The problem: t2i lacks mid-iso's and most photographic lenses have fixed apartures (not a single, "smooth" aparture). Today I got some fantastic shots, and only to discover that many of them are having an unacceptable amount of noise. I tnhought I'd be good with 400, but no; it was way too much. I had my worries on location but had to go for it; stepping up would overexpose the image for the scene, even with just one click. (Ie, shooting iso 200 (min. with HTP active) and steppnig up would greatly affect the dynamic range and contrast of the image in a way that I found to give an undesired look; of course unaware of the great amount of video noise in the dark areas).

Maybe I should have turned of HTP and tried that, but really, that could affect the look of singled-out shots. And besides, I had shot iso 400 before without this (unacceptable) amount of noise.

So there you have it... most likely an "obvious" issue to the hardcore peeps... but most of us are shooting on lenses with this design. In perspective and after months of shooting with the t2i/550D, I regret not saving up money a few more weeks and bought 7D, also today there was some light raining back and forth even if the skies seemed clear... bah, anyway. Just wanted to share todays experience with the t2i as something very dissapointing, regarding exposure.

So be aware that the lack of mid-iso's MAY cause problems, now today figures I had a special type of situation shooting along building walls and a harsh difference in temperatures on subject, foreground etc. I love the t2i but, today it broke my heart!

 

[Keeganxt]

From what I've read, HTP should only be used for iso1600 or higher

There's a great thread here.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eos-7d-hd/467018-all-7d-settings-shooting-video.html

Post 14

 

[maranfilms]

non native iso's are not as clean or unnoisy as the native iso's on the 7d. So inbetween iso's are not always an option either. Im not sure why your unable to get the proper exposure with changing shutter speed, or f-stop. And if it's a shallow dof your after, you can always use ND filters. Im sorry, but I have no gripes about the lack of in between iso. I do have an issue with not having the option to adjust kelvin temps. There are work arounds for that as well, just not as easy or precise.

 

[CF01]

Use a video noise reduction program. I've been very pleased with Neat Video. There are probably some other good ones out there too.

 

[J Davis]

Back in February I was very careful before I moved over from 7d to t2i
mainly because I was used to the 1/3rd iso bracketing and I knew that
the t2i only has full stop iso bracketing.

But eos lenses allow 1/3rd stop aperture adjustments and with manual lenses you
can set the aperture ring to between stops.

There may be reasons to switch to 7D, especially if you need the weather sealing
or if you need strobe control, burst rate or twice the AF points. But I don't
see ISO or noise as being a strong enough reason to warrant the extra expenditure.

 

[J Davis]

for reference

ISO/Noise tests. 1080/24p, lens cap on. In FCP, native format, maxed the mids, applied same filter to every clip. Large video version is uploading.. Handheld, skewtastic footage to come..

Video of the ISO tests, Vimeo compression crippled a couple of seconds:

 

[PerroneFord]

Oh dear.

Let's look at the root cause of the issue. Because the solution is not to throw money at the problem.

The first thing that seems to have been missing here was a mastery of the camera. When to use HTP, when to dial back certain functions in the camera, etc.

The second thing that seems to have been missing is some of the basic tools of filmmaking. Like a .3, .6, .9 ND set. Those are your 1/3 stop adjustments.

The third thing that seems to have been missing here is a good tech scout. Shooting test footage in conditions similar to what you intend to shoot your movie is is CRUCIAL, and performed by even the most experienced of DPs.

The fourth thing that seems to be missing here is an understanding of filmmaking techniques. Most feature films are shot on 2 filmstocks. A ISO100 daylight stock, and an ISO 500 Tungsten Stock. Certainly there are variations as some will also use an ISO 50 stock, or a ISO 250 stock. But there are no "inbetween" ISOs once the film is purchased or loaded in the camera. So you use lighting, ND, and other tools to get the exposure where you need it, when you need it. If you need to stay on your ISO 100 speed film all day, and you REALLY need an ISO 25, you stack NDs to get to that level of sensitivity, and peel them back off as you lose light during the day. You do the reverse in the morning as the light is coming up.

Blaming production issues on a marginally cheaper camera, when clear and well tested solutions are easily available serves no one. If your image is noisy at IS0 400, it's going to be noisy at 320 as well. ISO 400 on the T2I is cleaner than any ISO 250 film stock I've ever seen.

I see J. Davis has posted the very famous chart and comparison's of ISOs from the 5D. However, I have not seen this done with the T2i. So perhaps that should be done.

 

[J Davis]

i see j. Davis has posted the very famous chart and comparison's of isos from the 5d. However, i have not seen this done with the t2i. So perhaps that should be done.

that's a 7d noise/iso test i posted !


edit:
not done a t2i test myself or seen one but just by feel the 7d and t2i noise differences are not noticeable to me

 

[ICD Films]

Of course I am using ND filters. Though, I guess today would be the day were I should have brought that nasty, soft fader that I normally consider useless... (also was shooting with high shutters, but yeah, an almost fully opened fader would have done the job this time). Still; there *would* be nice with middle iso's. That's *my* opinion. Now suck on that. :laugh: (And hey, a spicy topic title will start some fanboy flaming, look at it from the BRIGHT side!)

PerroneFord: You're one of the best posters on these boards, but you're not scoring points assuming people are dumb lamas. I've done some pretty extensive testing for my own part on 550D to assure it's good enough for what I do. No, I'm not an expert, nor do I inted to be. And if I'm actually shooting on a 700 dollar camera, I'm obviosly not having "tech scouts" under my command (as a matter of fact it was just me and the actor on set - the life of the indie filmmaker).

This was however a situation where FILM would have done its part, the dynamic range was really on it's edge with this camera. Was also shooting strictly at s250 for artistic reasons, but yeah, it would be nice to have a film crew at times... I'll put it on my shopping list.. DP, assistants, assistants to the assistants... with tight little bodies...:laugh:

...and YES, I was a lazy bastard not switching the zoom for the primes and some nice manual stops. Oh dear, what is the world coming to.

edit: I understand the conecpt of iso's and that it's "wrong" in a video perspective - but it doesn't change the fact that on this day, and probably others to come, it would just have been nice with a more selective choice of iso's (even if they're "wrong" to use in the first place!) And 400 has really worked well before, but like i said was some extreme contrasts going on, clouds constanty changing light etc...

 

[PerroneFord]

Martin,

Don't mean to assume you're dumb or lazy. I can only go by the information that was offered. Nowhere did you state you were using ND or doing anything else to control exposure other than shifting ISO. Based on your comments I can now surmise that you are an experienced shooter.

I don't see what shooting on a $700 camera has to do with a tech scout. I shoot on a T2i, and I tech scout every location I shoot at for sound and light. My productions have been a little bigger than yours, but not huge by any means. Generally a crew of 5-10 people.

If you were blowing the highlights, then yes, film could have been helpful. The 7-7.5 stops of these cameras don't do a lot to help. That is somewhat extensible with picture profiles and better glass, but that may not be where you wanted to go.

Oh well, hopefully the answers others have given will lead you on the right path, and I am very sorry if I offended you by not giving you due credit.

 

[J Davis]

Hey Martin, why not a rent a 7d and shoot with it a bit before blowing cash on buying.

That way you will know for sure !

 

[hyalinejim]

The noise is being greatly exacerbated by HTP. Turn it off and you'll see noticeably less noise.

 

[studio1972]

Okay, I'm not a t2i hater... I'm getting some fantastic images out of it... and I do NOT own a 7D - however, today I experienced a really annoying issue that I never even thought of before.

The problem: t2i lacks mid-iso's and most photographic lenses have fixed apartures (not a single, "smooth" aparture). Today I got some fantastic shots, and only to discover that many of them are having an unacceptable amount of noise. I tnhought I'd be good with 400, but no; it was way too much. I had my worries on location but had to go for it; stepping up would overexpose the image for the scene, even with just one click. (Ie, shooting iso 200 (min. with HTP active) and steppnig up would greatly affect the dynamic range and contrast of the image in a way that I found to give an undesired look; of course unaware of the great amount of video noise in the dark areas).

Maybe I should have turned of HTP and tried that, but really, that could affect the look of singled-out shots. And besides, I had shot iso 400 before without this (unacceptable) amount of noise.

So there you have it... most likely an "obvious" issue to the hardcore peeps... but most of us are shooting on lenses with this design. In perspective and after months of shooting with the t2i/550D, I regret not saving up money a few more weeks and bought 7D, also today there was some light raining back and forth even if the skies seemed clear... bah, anyway. Just wanted to share todays experience with the t2i as something very dissapointing, regarding exposure.

So be aware that the lack of mid-iso's MAY cause problems, now today figures I had a special type of situation shooting along building walls and a harsh difference in temperatures on subject, foreground etc. I love the t2i but, today it broke my heart!

The no mid-ISO 'problem' is probably the main difference between the 7d and 550d, it's been discussed before several times. It's worth mentioning that the camera does actually have in-between ISO values, but they are not user selectable. If you use auto ISO the camera uses these values which enables it to do a pretty good job of maintaining exposure automatically with the aperture and shutter set to manual.

Might not be of use to you, but you never know?

 

[robotsound]

The 1/3 stop ISO settings on the 7D were addressed in the Zacuto shootout (where the 7D, T2i, and other DSLR cameras were put up against 35mm film in controlled tests). It was their conclusion that the 1/3 ISO stops on the 7D should be avoided due to the extra noise, and that for best results only using the native, non-digitally shifted ISO settings was recommended.

If I had the 7D instead of the T2i, I would make it a point to confine myself to the native ISO settings anyway.

 

[Jordan Scott Price]

In response to the post with the ISO pictures taken with the lens cap on, I thought the OP who ran that test on marvelsfilm said that whatever conclusions he had made about the native ISO's was disproved.

Quoting from marvelsfilm.wordpress.com:

You’ll see that the only suitable ISO values for 7D video are 160, 320, 640, 1250 and maybe 3200. Interesting!!

Update: i am at a loss now… i receive messages from other 7D users that, on the contrary, only whole ISO numbers should be used… I think i’ve lost my own thread…

 

[Kholi]

Those tests were not ran with the Marvels Film setting. That was before that setting even came around.

Those tests were done with standard profiles native to the 7D.

160, 320, 650, 1250 and 3200 are cleaner than the off ISOs below them.

Banding also occurs at lower ISOs, and sometimes heavy macro blocking.

OP has a very valid reason for wanting to have the 7D, and that's as much control over the image before it hits compression as possible. It is valuable, and would be worth the extra 700.00 to me if I were choosing a Canon camera today.