AJA Cion vs F65
- Thread starter JMtheDP
- Start date
Viddovation
Veteran
Hi Guys
A company here brought me one of the first Cions in the country to have a look it, I did a most unscientific comparison with my F65.
Would you guys be interested in hearing some thoughts about the alleged "Baby Alexa"?
I can write some down later if people will read it
I really doubt the Cion even came close.
steve phillipps
Veteran
Just the thread title made me smile, so a write should certainly be fun! My guess is - both make images good enough to use for TV or cinema, the F65 wins in ergonomics and the image has the edge if you look for it in highlight rolloff and colours. Just my guess having never used either - is that close? Just a few bullet points would be good if you can't be bothered with a full write up 
Steve
Steve
stefanhuberfilms
Veteran
Funny comparison! Sign me up
JMtheDP
Veteran
Sony F65 VS AJA Cion, A Very Unscientific Test
Please read message a few pages on for an important update to this!
---
Disclaimer, mostly for anyone finding this who isn't part of the community here:
I am an F65 owner, therefore biased in some ways, I had a small amount of hands-on time with an AJA Cion outside of a trade environment. I did not perform any scientific testing, everything here is the result of my own opinions and far-from perfect methodology.
---
So to give a little background, I recently met a guy called Anthony Corcoran from a company in the UK called Jigsaw 24. We met at an event at a University in the UK and he asked me if I would like to see the new AJA Cion when one came into the country, as he was interested in a DOP's experience of it. I am generally not interested in looking at cameras unless I want to buy one but I agreed because I liked Tony and the Cion was genuinely interesting looking to me.
I find most of the recent crop of cameras from "non-established" cine camera makers have ranged from poor to excellent in terms of image quality, but nearly all of them have in my opinion suffered from unconventional design which leads to a mass of third party and expensive accessories to do simple things. As someone who has shot some feature films nearly completely handheld, I need a camera which is comfortable on the shoulder and easy to use. The Cion is one of the first cameras I have seen that looks to me a bit like I expect a camera to. It is a radical departure from what Blackmagic are doing, or Canon. Something roughly alexa-shaped, with a "4K" sensor, 12 stops of dynamic range, ProRes or RAW recording and a price point under $10,000 is really appealing and sounds like a camera I wished Blackmagic would make.
First impressions of the Cion are good. It looks well finished, is relatively light and well balanced. There is a control panel on the side (operator side), V-Lock battery mount at the back and interchangeable lens mount at the front. The mounts can be changed with an Allen (Hex) key. There is a handle with a run-stop switch in the top, this is screwed in to an integrated cheeseplate. On the AC's side of the camera there are no switches, but a raft of proper-sized outputs and two full sized XLR inputs. All good.
From here, it goes a bit downhill. The camera's media (proprietary cards) are expensive and they sit poking about 1" out of the body. Why, I do not know - there is nothing stopping them being removed during a write or knocked accidentally if you were unlucky. There is also a large fan vent on the top which does its job well but seems like a great place for rain to enter the body of the camera. The camera did however stay quite quiet during use.
On the operator's side of the camera is a small screen, about 2", the bottom of this screen becomes the menu. Why the whole screen does not become the menu, I do not know. The most important features are relatively easy to access via quick buttons, but generally the menu is confusing. The 2" screen is very poor and only a guide, so why it isn't a menu full time (a la F35/F65/Alexa) is beyond me. Anyone who has used an AJA Ki Pro will be familiar with the interface.
The camera requires a Cion-specific adapter to get rods on it and then requires further third party accessories to help mount it to ARRI standard baseplates etc... The best option I can see is there is an official AJA add-on for 15mm lightweight rods and an adapter to allow you to clamp the unit to Sony-style VCT-14 baseplates. In my opinion this should be a standard item.
A lot of this I could forgive as the camera is still a very low price point (£6,995 UK - $8,995 US) compared with, say, the F5. Unfortunately, when it came time to look at the pictures I was not impressed.
For a long time people have been speculating that this camera used the same sensor as the Blackmagic 4K. I have used the BM4K once and I am fairly confident it is the same sensor. Other people on the internet have confirmed as much and this is a real shame. This camera could have been saved by a half-decent sensor but the BM4K sensor is one of the worst I have used in a long time. It is worse than the R1 M.
To illustrate my point, I set up the AJA Cion and the F65 side-by-side. The AJA Cion was set to "normal expanded" gamma - the closest I could find to a log-type image, or one which claimed to have a larger dynamic range. They have a "no gamma" option but that is entirely useless as the picture is unviewable. The F65 was set to F65RAW, with the footage processed in RAW Viewer and I even processed the footage with an S-Log LUT applied to add some contrast to the F65 footage and make it a fairer fight.
Both cameras had Illumina S35 lenses on. The F65 had a 25mm, the Cion the 35mm. The F65 was set to T4 at 800 ISO, the Cion T2.8 at 320 ISO (interestingly the camera has only 320,500,800 and 1000 ISO).
(BTW the Green in the F65 screenshot is a lens flare)
Judge for yourselves
Please read message a few pages on for an important update to this!
---
Disclaimer, mostly for anyone finding this who isn't part of the community here:
I am an F65 owner, therefore biased in some ways, I had a small amount of hands-on time with an AJA Cion outside of a trade environment. I did not perform any scientific testing, everything here is the result of my own opinions and far-from perfect methodology.
---
So to give a little background, I recently met a guy called Anthony Corcoran from a company in the UK called Jigsaw 24. We met at an event at a University in the UK and he asked me if I would like to see the new AJA Cion when one came into the country, as he was interested in a DOP's experience of it. I am generally not interested in looking at cameras unless I want to buy one but I agreed because I liked Tony and the Cion was genuinely interesting looking to me.
I find most of the recent crop of cameras from "non-established" cine camera makers have ranged from poor to excellent in terms of image quality, but nearly all of them have in my opinion suffered from unconventional design which leads to a mass of third party and expensive accessories to do simple things. As someone who has shot some feature films nearly completely handheld, I need a camera which is comfortable on the shoulder and easy to use. The Cion is one of the first cameras I have seen that looks to me a bit like I expect a camera to. It is a radical departure from what Blackmagic are doing, or Canon. Something roughly alexa-shaped, with a "4K" sensor, 12 stops of dynamic range, ProRes or RAW recording and a price point under $10,000 is really appealing and sounds like a camera I wished Blackmagic would make.
First impressions of the Cion are good. It looks well finished, is relatively light and well balanced. There is a control panel on the side (operator side), V-Lock battery mount at the back and interchangeable lens mount at the front. The mounts can be changed with an Allen (Hex) key. There is a handle with a run-stop switch in the top, this is screwed in to an integrated cheeseplate. On the AC's side of the camera there are no switches, but a raft of proper-sized outputs and two full sized XLR inputs. All good.
From here, it goes a bit downhill. The camera's media (proprietary cards) are expensive and they sit poking about 1" out of the body. Why, I do not know - there is nothing stopping them being removed during a write or knocked accidentally if you were unlucky. There is also a large fan vent on the top which does its job well but seems like a great place for rain to enter the body of the camera. The camera did however stay quite quiet during use.
On the operator's side of the camera is a small screen, about 2", the bottom of this screen becomes the menu. Why the whole screen does not become the menu, I do not know. The most important features are relatively easy to access via quick buttons, but generally the menu is confusing. The 2" screen is very poor and only a guide, so why it isn't a menu full time (a la F35/F65/Alexa) is beyond me. Anyone who has used an AJA Ki Pro will be familiar with the interface.
The camera requires a Cion-specific adapter to get rods on it and then requires further third party accessories to help mount it to ARRI standard baseplates etc... The best option I can see is there is an official AJA add-on for 15mm lightweight rods and an adapter to allow you to clamp the unit to Sony-style VCT-14 baseplates. In my opinion this should be a standard item.
A lot of this I could forgive as the camera is still a very low price point (£6,995 UK - $8,995 US) compared with, say, the F5. Unfortunately, when it came time to look at the pictures I was not impressed.
For a long time people have been speculating that this camera used the same sensor as the Blackmagic 4K. I have used the BM4K once and I am fairly confident it is the same sensor. Other people on the internet have confirmed as much and this is a real shame. This camera could have been saved by a half-decent sensor but the BM4K sensor is one of the worst I have used in a long time. It is worse than the R1 M.
To illustrate my point, I set up the AJA Cion and the F65 side-by-side. The AJA Cion was set to "normal expanded" gamma - the closest I could find to a log-type image, or one which claimed to have a larger dynamic range. They have a "no gamma" option but that is entirely useless as the picture is unviewable. The F65 was set to F65RAW, with the footage processed in RAW Viewer and I even processed the footage with an S-Log LUT applied to add some contrast to the F65 footage and make it a fairer fight.
Both cameras had Illumina S35 lenses on. The F65 had a 25mm, the Cion the 35mm. The F65 was set to T4 at 800 ISO, the Cion T2.8 at 320 ISO (interestingly the camera has only 320,500,800 and 1000 ISO).
(BTW the Green in the F65 screenshot is a lens flare)
Judge for yourselves
Last edited:
Thanks James for posting this. I am incredibly surprised at how terrible the Cion footage is...
I was quite interested in this camera as well as the form factor and layout of the Cion seems just right for shoulder mounted work. I was a bit disappointed when I read about the cropped sensor size (it's smaller than s35mm), 12 stops of dynamic range, and all the add-on accessories that are basically essential to use the camera properly. In any case I requested a loaner through their free loaner program so that I could shoot some tests against the F35. Hopefully they will send me one in a month or so for this test.
Thanks again for the write up.
Cheers.
Igor
I was quite interested in this camera as well as the form factor and layout of the Cion seems just right for shoulder mounted work. I was a bit disappointed when I read about the cropped sensor size (it's smaller than s35mm), 12 stops of dynamic range, and all the add-on accessories that are basically essential to use the camera properly. In any case I requested a loaner through their free loaner program so that I could shoot some tests against the F35. Hopefully they will send me one in a month or so for this test.
Thanks again for the write up.
Cheers.
Igor
FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
They circled their wagons around a bum sensor. You could tell even BM weren't sure about that sensor hence making the Ursa sensor up-gradable. Even then BM knew they had to find a better sensor (new 4.6K sensor) and Aja went whole hog on it. The best thing they can do now since they haven't sold many and won't is to work on getting another sensor (Fairchild sensor on in new BM cams?) to replace and go from there. A max ISO 800, 10 stop camera in 2015 is a hard sell.
Surf it Mike
Well-known member
Dataload on both camera? F65 isn't known for its small data footprint. How's does this compare with Prores 444. Thanx.
PS. in no way should this post be seen as a dig at the F65 because IMO this beats both Arri & Red offerings.
PS. in no way should this post be seen as a dig at the F65 because IMO this beats both Arri & Red offerings.
eddavid
Carbonite Member
F65 I think you can shoot with SR Raw Lite which is more efficient.
This is a judgement-free subforum - no digs taken!
We are mostly using a camera from 2008 that get me laughs on set everyday till I show them the images!
That one is most likely proprietary to BMD.
On the other hand, I suppose nothing is stopping AJA from recalling the already produced models and dropping in the best sensor they could find on an open market. Sony won't sell them their new FS7 sensor but might sell the one from F5, as they tend to do after a few years after the product introduction. Then there's whatever sensor is in KiniMini. Or maybe there's an older sensor that can be modded by a third party. If I were AJA, I'd do some checking around.
Hunter Hampton
Carbonite Member
I finally got to play with the Cion at nab this year, compared to todays cameras- the image highlight handling is lacking, its not terrible but its not close to a professional system. With that said, everything else on that camera is pretty awesome, the layout, the buttons, the shoulder ergonomics. The weakest link is the sensor and once that gets fixed, I think Aja will have something really special.
Thats not to say you couldn't shoot some amazing stuff on it as is, put it in a studio and you'd make some amazing looking stuff.
Thats not to say you couldn't shoot some amazing stuff on it as is, put it in a studio and you'd make some amazing looking stuff.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Those test images.. well im just not sure what you are trying to show?
They seem terribly matched aka some see the dark shelves area and some not.
Obviously the highlight fall off looks crap but those same frames look plain over exposed.
Seems like you should have put the bookshelf at a dark grey point and observed the handling of the light areas.. or exposed for bright and see how dark the bookshelf went?
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S
They seem terribly matched aka some see the dark shelves area and some not.
Obviously the highlight fall off looks crap but those same frames look plain over exposed.
Seems like you should have put the bookshelf at a dark grey point and observed the handling of the light areas.. or exposed for bright and see how dark the bookshelf went?
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S
JMtheDP
Veteran
Sam
Like I say, this is the most unscientific testing one could possibly do.
The point is both the cameras were set to a theoretical equal exposure. One can clearly see that the Cion doesnt see anywhere near as far into the shadows, or as high into the highlights.
I did expose for the highlights to match them and then look, the whole left side of the room was nearly black.
The point is that AJA are making claims for the camera which are wildly off - to me there is no point doing any further testing because the images coming out of the camera are just not up to standard.
Like I say, this is the most unscientific testing one could possibly do.
The point is both the cameras were set to a theoretical equal exposure. One can clearly see that the Cion doesnt see anywhere near as far into the shadows, or as high into the highlights.
I did expose for the highlights to match them and then look, the whole left side of the room was nearly black.
The point is that AJA are making claims for the camera which are wildly off - to me there is no point doing any further testing because the images coming out of the camera are just not up to standard.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Im not saying it is better.. even in the same class - far from it - it just seemed that twizzling the iris up or down might have helped it a little, and also some form of similar framing.
Having shot a lot on the BMC4k I never got it to look that bad
Here is a grab of a grab of a grab from the BMC4k - the image is usable (when lit) and also easy to bring full colour sat too - very unfashionable I know but to me red being red is not a bad thing.
S
Having shot a lot on the BMC4k I never got it to look that bad
Here is a grab of a grab of a grab from the BMC4k - the image is usable (when lit) and also easy to bring full colour sat too - very unfashionable I know but to me red being red is not a bad thing.
S
JMtheDP
Veteran
Perhaps I am doing something biblically wrong somewhere (and in which case I am happy to be corrected) but the footage I saw out the Cion looked very much like footage I had out of the BM4K when I have shot with that.
The scenario I put the cameras in was very harsh, the room itself having no lighting and the window having full sunlight into it. Under controlled lighting I think the Cion would do fine but I am rarely under totally controlled lighting and when I am that's normally a studio when I have the budget for fancy things anyway.
Someone else did test the camera and found it produced about 8-and-a-bit stops of DR, very short of the 12 promised. I seem to recall the BMCC was actually pretty good in the DR stakes.
The scenario I put the cameras in was very harsh, the room itself having no lighting and the window having full sunlight into it. Under controlled lighting I think the Cion would do fine but I am rarely under totally controlled lighting and when I am that's normally a studio when I have the budget for fancy things anyway.
Someone else did test the camera and found it produced about 8-and-a-bit stops of DR, very short of the 12 promised. I seem to recall the BMCC was actually pretty good in the DR stakes.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Probably just need to stop down a bit. BTW - I don't care I have my FS7 which is doubtless better than the Coin and worse than the F65
S
S