AJA Cion vs F65

[Viddovation]

Morgan's frame grab looks like it's from a controlled lighting scenario, wheras JM's test is from an uncontrolled wide dynamic range scene. Most any camera can look good under controlled lighting with 10 or less stops visible, so I'm not surprised the Cion or Blackmagic can produce high quality results in controlled lighting.

 

[JMtheDP]

My point Sam is that I set the camera up and neither its shadows nor its highlights came even close to the F65. I wish I still had my F35, which Panavision only claimed had 10 stops - would have still looked much nicer. It isn't just when it clips, but how - most noticeable on the sofa arm (it goes yellow then white)

 

[Viddovation]

I wish I still had my F35, which Panavision only claimed had 10 stops - would have still looked much nicer.

I think, gentleman, there was the old math, and now there is the new math. The F35 is probably 10 stops the same way the Cion is 8 stops...

 

[JMtheDP]

Very true - I think Panavision only rated the F35 at 10 stops because that was generally what people were rating film at for most purposes - the top and bottom stop (or two) is always hotly debated.

 

[morgan_moore]

(it goes yellow then white)

Yep - super easy to cure in Resolve, but that is the thing some of these cams you just have to protect the highlights (yes I know that is often almost impossible!) and then dig into the shadows.

Yep I lit my BMC scene.

I just feel that giving it a little more time would lead to understanding the strengths and weaknesses. The camera is not unusable.. but it is also I guess a million miles from the F65, If you have access to the latter I can see no point considering it for any projects!

My own personal dilemma is that I might get a bmc4k as a Bcam to my FS7, but I feel that there is a risk that it need so much more lighting (DR control) that, well it may just not be worth it.

Maybe you were considering the Cion for a Bcam? Again the lighting ratios required are so wildly different that I would agree with your conclusion that it is not worth pursuing.

S

 

[JMtheDP]

Sam

The way the highlights clip I believe is common to all sensors, but some cameras have processing to cure or mask it. It doesn't help the BM4K/Cion clip earlier.

As I said in the review I wasn't testing the Cion for myself, but a company I know brought it to me for my opinion. As they kept calling it a "baby Alexa" I thought I would show them fairly succinctly why that wasn't true at all.

The major problem the Cion has is that an F5 is not too much more money and is a whole lot more camera.

 

[eddavid]

this is getting heated! yes it ain't no baby alexa. marketing vs testing - that's what I think James was trying to show as well!

It is a fine camera and so is the BMC 4k thingy - but throwing around those words like "baby alexa" are silly silly silly.

 

[VinceinLA]

It is a fine camera and so is the BMC 4k thingy -

After spending hours with it, I wouldnt say that even. I know some people like to only say "nice things" but I don't and I will say that the Cion is not a tool that anyone, being reasonable, would employ. It simply doesnt do anything special, has a horribly positioned shoulder pad (which was suppose to be one of its cool features) and nothing else positive that I could find in the operation of it or in the images on the calibrated monitors we had on hand.

 

[Viddovation]

After spending hours with it, I wouldnt say that even. I know some people like to only say "nice things" but I don't and I will say that the Cion is not a tool that anyone, being reasonable, would employ. It simply doesnt do anything special, has a horribly positioned shoulder pad (which was suppose to be one of its cool features) and nothing else positive that I could find in the operation of it or in the images on the calibrated monitors we had on hand.

A far better "Baby Alexa" would be a used Arri D21, now selling for under $5k on eBay.

 

[JMtheDP]

I don't think a D-21 is ever going to be described as a "baby" anything!

 

[JMtheDP]

Hi Guys

So it seems AJA read these forums as they have got in touch with me. Apparently I may have had the camera set up in a way which would not have shown it in a flattering light. They have been very nice and have offered me more time with one as they are keen to get more thoughts and input on it.

I hope to do this soon and will update you when this happens. The good news is they are a decent bunch by the sounds of it and much friendlier than some other companies I could mention!

Watch this space
JM

 

[steve phillipps]

Yep, they are here - and that's a plus point for me, Jon Thorn has always been quick to respond, open and honest from what I've seen. Don't know about the rest of the company but he also seems to be a bit of a film buff and camera geek - 2 more plus points in my book Steve

 

[Viddovation]

Hi Guys

So it seems AJA read these forums as they have got in touch with me. Apparently I may have had the camera set up in a way which would not have shown it in a flattering light. They have been very nice and have offered me more time with one as they are keen to get more thoughts and input on it.

I hope to do this soon and will update you when this happens. The good news is they are a decent bunch by the sounds of it and much friendlier than some other companies I could mention!

Watch this space
JM

I think it's completely possible your unscientific test put the Cion at a disadvantage through poor settings, but from what I'm reading else where it's still falling far short of 12 stops. Or, at a minimum, is using the most generous possible math to make the claim.

 

[JMtheDP]

My exact words to them were these:

"The test was incredibly unscientific, I was comparing a camera I know extremely well with a camera I know not at all and if you feel that I have used poor or incorrect settings I am more than happy to retest and see what happens."

I did also mention that in my opinion if there was an obviously better option, I clearly missed it so perhaps some better signposting would be nice. In any case I very much look forward to a dialogue with AJA because any interaction between these companies and end users is only ever a good thing.

 

[hscully]

I had a Cion for a few weeks. It was the first batch of firmware. I think that comparing a $9K camera to and F65 is not very helpful. I know that your test was meant as a quick check for a friend but if you don't light it, it's kind of hard to say what's up with the Cion. After all it lives down in the lower range of ISOs and occupies a different place than an "available light" type camera with high ISOs and certainly won't have the DR of Sony's $80K flagship cinema camera (or whatever it costs!).

I think the guys over at Cion are fantastic, as you say. They're dedicated to this camera in a way that I really admire. From what I heard from NAB they are on their 3rd firmware version. I think the Cion concept is a good one. No one is going to gripe about Pro Res 4444 in post. It's a dream.

Here's what I found with the early version one I had. You need to watch the highlights. If you light, the color is beautiful and the noise or texture is really lovely. The shadows, again in the early firmware version I had, did crush some but I bet they work that out. In this frame you can see from the kitchen window, and that streak on the wall how it looks over exposed. In all I was pleased with this frame.

 

[hscully]

Here's another frame grab. Although the mood here is noirish, you can see that in this setup that same kitchen window held better. Honestly the sun was not as hot on that side of the house by this time. BTW I didn't ND any of the windows as would have been my want, had I had a regular crew It's a matter of balance with the Cion, I think.This frame could also use a better color grade, as I look at these two grabs.

 

[Viddovation]

Well, considering used F65 cameras have sold for $20k USD, I think the comparison is fairer than the $80k pricetag would have you think.

As for the noir Cion frame grabs, I can't say that I find them impressive in the slightest... just an opinion. Obviously if you limit dynamic range in the scene the camera is going to perform better, but that doesn't mean it necessarily performs competitively.

 

[JMtheDP]

The issue I have is that when I am on the sort of shoot that could only afford a Cion, I rarely have the kit or the time to fully light a scene. This was my issue with things like the infamous Zacuto test - give me three hours to light a shot and you can make an iPhone look good. When we were in film school we had Z1s and if you were in the studio, we could just about make them look acceptable. Of course, in the real world film students rarely shot in fully equipped studios (or if we did it wasnt on Z1s).

I am fully aware that some cameras are better in shadows, or in highlights than others, some are better at certain ISOs (I hate tests where every camera is set to the same ISO, even when it is not native to many of them) - hence I shot the Cion 320 and the F65 800. In theory, the Cion should be giving away two stops total to the F65. Clearly in the mode I was using this was not the case. Hence I am very happy to repeat a test at some point with better settings to see if I have missed something massive.

But to repeat, MY TEST IS FAR FROM SCIENTIFIC AND ANYONE THINKING OF USING A CION FOR THEIR PROJECT SHOULD DO THEIR OWN TESTING! AS WITH ANY CAMERA!

 

[hscully]

The issue I have is that when I am on the sort of shoot that could only afford a Cion, I rarely have the kit or the time to fully light a scene.

This is an excellent point. The price point of the Cion places it in there with the FS7s and C300 where you expect to have an easier time in natural light.

ANYONE THINKING OF USING A CION FOR THEIR PROJECT SHOULD DO THEIR OWN TESTING! AS WITH ANY CAMERA!

I heard on a podcast from NAB that says that Cion has units available as "loaners." If you really want to get your hands on one, I would contact them.

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

James, please continue testing. As you see the community is dying to know about the new Cion.

Your first test is Dynamic range, and the Cion does seem to do horribly here,

but there's a point, some cameras have their DR in the shadows, and some cameras have it in the highlights.

With the cameras that have their most DR in the shadows, you protect the highlights, which will result in crushing of the room in your test to black, then in post you bring up the DR in the shadows. This is what I heard from Cion testers, it has the dynamic range in the shadows, and it has an enormous power to dig into the shadows.

With cameras that have their DR in the highlights, you over expose until the shadows/room look good, then bring down the DR in the highlights.

Whatever the exposure and methods both types of camera after grading will have similar DR (if they both have the same number of DR)

This is just the point I wanted to make, underexpose the room and push it up later. See what happens there.

The first test here is great for highlight rolloff, which looks a bit harsh on the cion, not great.

I hope other tests would be 1- resolution in a scene using the same lens, 2-skin colour of a human subject under the same conditions

Again thank you for the tests, hugely appreciated