AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder

harddrive said:
I'm not sure where you got those prices, but looking at UK pricing for the DVX200 ( http://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/panasonic_ag-dvx200 ) and the Z100 ( http://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/sony_pxw_z100 ) they're virtually identical for pricing over here. And I'm not for a moment saying I like the Z100 front end, but I think it's wrong to draw any conclusion that small sensor must mean much cheaper lens. Small sensor may make some design aspects easier - but on the other hand it's f1.6 max, and 20x zoom.

But DVX200/Z100 isn't by any means a like for like comparison, and that was never the intention. The Z100 was only mentioned to show how a full high end codec can be in a camera costing the same as the DVX200. Let's just see if a Z100/RX10 hybrid appears, which a few of us think highly likely. That would be an interesting comparison to the DVX200.
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On B&H's website, the DVX is preordering for $4,200 USD, the Z100 was listed at $5,500... however, after clicking through a bit, I see now it shows up in your cart as $5,000. Still, the $2,000 difference is prices at release. The Z100, if memory serves me right, was ~$6,000 when adjusted for inflation when released. I fully expect the DVX200 to probably be going for in the ballpark of ~$3,200 in a year or so. I think it's important release date prices when comparing cameras... saying Sony currently charges X amount when Panasonic charges Y isn't a far comparison when X is for a 2 year old camera, and Y is for something that hasn't even been released yet.
 
DLD said:
I reckon, as soon as DVX200 comes out, Z100 is headed toward the discount bin in a major way.
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We will have to see how the DVX200 actually performs first. Likely more to the point what Sony brings out to compete. The FDR-AX1 has already been discontinued ( its prosumer variant ) In good light the DVX200 may have a problem competing against the Z100 10bit 4:2:2 XAVC 4K and UHD at 600 Mbps and true 20x zoom without cropping for higher frame rates.
 
Ron Evans said:
We will have to see how the DVX200 actually performs first..
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For sure. The C100/300 were so popular because they delivered a pleasing image out of the camera with minimal fuss, at least by most people's standards. If the image is lacking, then all the usability in the world won't make up for it.
 
Not to bad (IMO), had a bit of trouble with the focus of the face on the blonde girl though.

Thanks for the camera swing as well. Do you think MOS cameras will ever not jello? The lean you get on the fast panning. It does recover quickly when you stop, but while your panning its there.
I have always used my cameras with the SS set to 1/250 or 350 so i can get a good freeze frame, or Slow Mo, out of fast motion (camera swing to follow). On CCD it was perfect, but CMOS/MOS you get the lean.
 
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mattjeh said:
For me, weighing up the dvx200 feature set against comparable models (and potential comparable models) from other companies is quite an important aspect of my decision making. I'd say it's helpful to have a broad sense of discussion here.
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I don't understand the large size since thr GH4 with 14-140 is so small. Is this for NDs and cooling? I hope it's not big just for marketing reasons. I have no problem carrying it around just I'm in bright sunlight and will be lifting the camera to my face over 400 times on a busy day. The HC-x1000 is a better size just not loving the image quality, I also need to pull decent stills from video and need images similar to the GH4 .
 
Phil vG said:
Not to bad (IMO), had a bit of trouble with the focus of the face on the blonde girl though.

Thanks for the camera swing as well. Do you think MOS cameras will ever not jello? T.
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There already are CMOS cameras with zero rolling shutter, these ones use Global shutter, the compromise is having much worse lowlight performance. These are BM Production 4K camera, BM Micro Cinema Camera, BM URSA 4K/4.6K, URSA Mini 4K/4.6K, AJA Cion, Sony F55.

And there are those cameras that have very very low rolling shutter jello in order to keep the high lowlight performance as a best of both worlds solution, but still, it's not zero jello. Least rolling shutter jello to almost invisible levels are C300II (incredibly low), Alexa and Amira, FS7 and F5 (bit worse than C300II and Alexa but still stable). .

And then as a third more rare approach is just using an old school mechanical shutted in front of the CMOS sensor to eliminate rolling shutter: Sony F65 and Arri D21, and Delta and Dalsa cameras

And CCD of course (Bolex, F35)

We will end up getting no jello + lowlight, either by global shutter sensors improving high ISO performance to rolling levels, or by Rolling shutter sensors decreasing jello to 1-2ms times of sensor readout.
 
fastfinger said:
I don't understand the large size since thr GH4 with 14-140 is so small. Is this for NDs and cooling? I hope it's not big just for marketing reasons. I have no problem carrying it around just I'm in bright sunlight and will be lifting the camera to my face over 400 times on a busy day. The HC-x1000 is a better size just not loving the image quality, I also need to pull decent stills from video and need images similar to the GH4 .
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Think of it the difference between a GH2 and an AF100. A 600D and a C300, an NEX 5 and an FS100, etc.

It's a different camera altogether with a different design for a different market.

To give you an idea of why it's bigger than a GH4 + 14-140:

The lens, if you look the dvx200 you'll see the lens is very large and heavy and the camera module is actually quite compact, this is a substantial piece of cine glass and mechanics, nothing remotely comparable to a m43s 14-140 kit lens, and if you needed the same lens on the GH4 it'd weigh the camera down A LOT. Then the sensor being slightly larger, with faster readout and capability to supersample from 5K to 4K and HD and do 120p, requiring different processors, cooling components, wiring, then the ND housing and the filter wheel carrying them, then the HUGE number of buttons and their placement for convenience, the flip out thick large LCD panel, the top handle, the XLE modue, audio recorder, microphone, servo power, the large side grip, the heavy SDI/genlock/timecode/HDMI connectors, the large EVF in the back, the much heavier battery compartment, dual media slots and housing, and overall the shell of the body and components are not at all similar it's a much stronger body material inside with heavier and more components and cooling system to back it off. That's why it's bigger. You see when you want to add just the XLRs and HDSDI how large and heavy the GH4 gets.

If you're used to normal camcorders you'll be at home with the dvx200, not that different perhaps slightly heavier than usual if you're coming from a C100, but it's just a standard size camcorder design, like Sonys FS100, FS700, FS7, HPX, XF205, XF305, XF105, camcorders. Not stills cameras. Both designs are great for their own purpose but if you're asking why it weighs and looks bigger than a gh4+14-140mm then you're probably better served with an SLR style camera like the GH4, they're great.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
We will end up getting no jello + lowlight, either by global shutter sensors improving high ISO performance to rolling levels, or by Rolling shutter sensors decreasing jello to 1-2ms times of sensor readout.
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Perhaps eventually, but -- when? I mean, the Red One came out almost 8 years ago, and we're still dealing with rolling shutter. Will it be another 8 years before global shutters replace them? Is anyone going to wait that long to buy in? Really, we've got to work with what there is now, because -- that's what there is now. Sure the future may offer true global shutters in commonplace affordable cameras, but the trends don't seem to imply that that's going to happen anytime soon.
 
Barry_Green said:
Perhaps eventually, but -- when? I mean, the Red One came out almost 8 years ago, and we're still dealing with rolling shutter. Will it be another 8 years before global shutters replace them? Is anyone going to wait that long to buy in? ...
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The problem is that, in between the faster readouts, came 4K. So, cameras needed to read a lot more data than in 1080p and they haven't quite caught up to that requirement yet. It's not incidental that A7RII has horrible rolling shutter in the s35 4K, where it has to read 15 MPX. Where it can bin, it does a lot better, albeit at the expense of resolution.

Rolling shutter is somewhat software correctable also and there are other ideas - alternate line reading, etc. - in the pipeline to correct them live in CMOS too.
 
Barry_Green said:
Perhaps eventually, but -- when? I mean, the Red One came out almost 8 years ago, and we're still dealing with rolling shutter. Will it be another 8 years before global shutters replace them? Is anyone going to wait that long to buy in? Really, we've got to work with what there is now, because -- that's what there is now. Sure the future may offer true global shutters in commonplace affordable cameras, but the trends don't seem to imply that that's going to happen anytime soon.
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Yes it'd be moronic to stop shooting or buying cameras waiting for a rolling shutter fix, it's just something we have to deal with and we have already dealt with and we co-exist. If rolling shutter is so much important then there ARE global shutter cameras out there, but for me no thanks I'll pass and take a Panasonic/Canon/Sony that shoot up to 10.000 ISO with great ergonomics instead of compromising al
the camera just to get that lack of the slight jello. The only exception in the world where you don't make a compromise is the Sony F55, until that technology and features trickle down to Dvx200/A7r prices I'll go with RS cameras. It's at least 2020 where start seeing good all around well refined global shutter cameras from Panasonic/Canon/Sony but even more likely is that by then their rolling shutter sensors will have 1millisecond readout that's virtualy global readout, the alexa is about 6milliseconds, c300II is reportedly 5ms, we'll get there in about 5 years give or take on our consumer-prosumer models. I bet RS sensors will win the race vs global.
 
DLD said:
The problem is that, in between the faster readouts, came 4K. So, cameras needed to read a lot more data than in 1080p and they haven't quite caught up to that requirement yet. It's not incidental that A7RII has horrible rolling shutter in the s35 4K, where it has to read 15 MPX. Where it can bin, it does a lot better, albeit at the expense of resolution.

Rolling shutter is somewhat software correctable also and there are other ideas - alternate line reading, etc. - in the pipeline to correct them live in CMOS too.
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My question is when will we finally reach the pinacle of desired resolution? 4K? 5K? 10K? It seems like we are probably there now, as 4K is pretty close to the resolution of super 35 film. What I would like to see is a push towards better imagery, color etc... Ive been into film making since back when the hvx200 was first introduced, i ended up purchasing an HPX500. The resolution of the 500 was terrible but it was HD, what I loved was the pleasing look of the Panasonic Cameras. Thats why i invested over 20K into a P2HD camera even though the resolution wasnt crazy sharp. Right now i have my eye on two cameras its the dvx200 and the Ursa Mini 4.6K. Ive seen video samples of both and they both look great, though i lean more towards the ursa mini because the look is more pleasing to me, and it seems that i can probably get more creative with more options of lenses and a shallower depth of field.

thats my two cents for what its worth...
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
There already are CMOS cameras with zero rolling shutter, these ones use Global shutter, the compromise is having much worse lowlight performance. These are BM Production 4K camera, BM Micro Cinema Camera, BM URSA 4K/4.6K, URSA Mini 4K/4.6K, AJA Cion, Sony F55.

And there are those cameras that have very very low rolling shutter jello in order to keep the high lowlight performance as a best of both worlds solution, but still, it's not zero jello. Least rolling shutter jello to almost invisible levels are C300II (incredibly low), Alexa and Amira, FS7 and F5 (bit worse than C300II and Alexa but still stable). .

And then as a third more rare approach is just using an old school mechanical shutted in front of the CMOS sensor to eliminate rolling shutter: Sony F65 and Arri D21, and Delta and Dalsa cameras

And CCD of course (Bolex, F35)

We will end up getting no jello + lowlight, either by global shutter sensors improving high ISO performance to rolling levels, or by Rolling shutter sensors decreasing jello to 1-2ms times of sensor readout.
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I suppose its a start, but none of those are "Run and Gun" like we get with CCD.
RnG is all I'll ever want. Literally, hold the camera and run (even with the trip and brake a leg risk :-KnockedOut(D ).
 
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Ebrahim Saadawi said:
Think of it the difference between a GH2 and an AF100. A 600D and a C300, an NEX 5 and an FS100, etc.

It's a different camera altogether with a different design for a different market.

To give you an idea of why it's bigger than a GH4 + 14-140:

The lens, if you look the dvx200 you'll see the lens is very large and heavy and the camera module is actually quite compact, this is a substantial piece of cine glass and mechanics, nothing remotely comparable to a m43s 14-140 kit lens, and if you needed the same lens on the GH4 it'd weigh the camera down A LOT. Then the sensor being slightly larger, with faster readout and capability to supersample from 5K to 4K and HD and do 120p, requiring different processors, cooling components, wiring, then the ND housing and the filter wheel carrying them, then the HUGE number of buttons and their placement for convenience, the flip out thick large LCD panel, the top handle, the XLE modue, audio recorder, microphone, servo power, the large side grip, the heavy SDI/genlock/timecode/HDMI connectors, the large EVF in the back, the much heavier battery compartment, dual media slots and housing, and overall the shell of the body and components are not at all similar it's a much stronger body material inside with heavier and more components and cooling system to back it off. That's why it's bigger. You see when you want to add just the XLRs and HDSDI how large and heavy the GH4 gets.

If you're used to normal camcorders you'll be at home with the dvx200, not that different perhaps slightly heavier than usual if you're coming from a C100, but it's just a standard size camcorder design, like Sonys FS100, FS700, FS7, HPX, XF205, XF305, XF105, camcorders. Not stills cameras. Both designs are great for their own purpose but if you're asking why it weighs and looks bigger than a gh4+14-140mm then you're probably better served with an SLR style camera like the GH4, they're great.
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Thanks for the response.
I use the HMC150 and the AC90. I also own the GH4, love the camera but it's not well suited for the sports type of video I do.
 
mattjeh said:
For me, weighing up the dvx200 feature set against comparable models (and potential comparable models) from other companies is quite an important aspect of my decision making. I'd say it's helpful to have a broad sense of discussion here.
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yes I agree. I've actually read every post on this thread so far. My comment was meant as light-hearted humor in hope of making someone laugh
:)
 
firehawk said:
yes I agree. I've actually read every post on this thread so far. My comment was meant as light-hearted humor in hope of making someone laugh
:)
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Just like you did with this post, people are a lot more inclined to see your making a joke when you put in a :laugh: or :grin: i think. I didn't realize you were joking until I noticed the DVX200"a" . It can just be hard to decide if you should or shouldn't put something there :undecided.

Ok, back to the cameras :beer:
 
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