AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder

[HHL]

Fair questions, and deserve a proper reply. For starters, what about this whole thread http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...anager&p=1986511055&viewfull=1#post1986511055 ?

It starts off by Barry saying:

So I think everybody here may have a realistic expectation that Panasonic were directly interested in hearing feedback via this forum?

I actually think that what is being missed by virtually everybody here - in spite of what Barry makes clear in the above - is that you can't simply talk of "Panasonic" when talking about cameras. There seems a very clear split between the consumer and pro departments, and my own conclusions are that the consumer department are far more savvy (and, it seems, successful) than the pro. Even if Panasonic pro aren't reading anything here, it would seem Panasonic consumer may be. (Or at least getting a condensed version back?)

My own views in that thread are that any "AF200" is not going to come from the consumer division - but what MAY be realistic is a system based on the GH4/YAGH concept. The latter itself leaves a lot to be desired - but may be a pointer to the future. And it's eminently possible from Panasonic CONSUMER division.

Well, I'm not, but isn't discussing new cameras one of the things these forums are for? I'm interested in putting thoughts forward, but if the manufacturers ignore them, then tough - they can't please everybody.

To be honest I'm surprised by the whole thought of intense brand loyalty to any make of camera for it's own sake, anyway. My current main camera is from Sony - but come the time to replace it the replacement may come from Sony - but if I think Canon, Panasonic (consumer or pro.....!), JVC or whoever have just what I need, then so be it. Brand loyalty may be a good thing for practical reasons like legacy accessories etc, but for it's own sake?

If Panasonic aren't making the camera anyone wants, then why not simply buy another brand?

Just an observation here because I'm witnessing the EXACT OPPOSITE over on BMCUSER....which (I'm paraphrasing here) is, "HOLY COW!!! It's like they READ MY MIND!!!" Others have simply stated: "No...it's called LISTENING. They've been listening to us!" I also saw an interview with Grant Petty where he talked about how important user input has been in there process. (He also joked that we give input whether or not they want it, lol) I don't mean anything by this...honestly....I'm just pointing out how interesting it is that one group (Panasonic hopefuls are disappointed and groaning) while another group is throwing parades (BMC imaging fans).

Me myself, I think this is a pretty cool cam. I see others are excited as well. Obviously...it's not for everyone, but I think the event folks (and others) are going to celebrate plenty once they have this cam in their hands. I doubt I'll ever own one, but I'm sure many will love it. I am sorry for AF100 folks who were hoping for the "next step"....but I'm sure they'll get an offering that serves their needs soon enough.

Cheers Peeps! I hope more companies listen to what we're willing to pay for!

 

[joe 1008]

You cannot get a baby in one month just by throwing nine women at the problem...

You could always get 10-bit 4:4:4 1080P from it, just record in 4K and downconvert in post.

Throw the women at me, Barry:love4: but, Panasonic, please give uns the possibility to do all that 10-bit 4:4:4 stuff internally. (or at least 4:2:2) this camera is designed for fast and easy delivery, so please implement some codec that fits the camera's concept im post production as well.

 

[ugafan]

But if you're just posting on message boards, and expecting them to know what people want, then that's something entirely different.... My point is, you can't expect them just to KNOW what it is you want.

but isn't that kind of their job, to know what people want?

i mean, if you are designing a camera..
and there is a forum with thousands of people who used the previous version..
wouldn't you think to look there to find out what people want in a new camera?
to me, that sounds a lot more effective than sitting back and waiting for some random emails to show up in your inbox.

david, i do see your point about if you didn't vote you shouldn't complain. i just think panasonic could have done better market research.

 

[David Jimerson]

Fair questions, and deserve a proper reply. For starters, what about this whole thread http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...anager&p=1986511055&viewfull=1#post1986511055 ?

That's fine, but that thread was only a few months ago; the DVX200 has been in the works for far longer than that. Surely no one would have expected that feedback which started to be offered in January would result in a full-mockup and a fully specced-out camera by mid-April? Not to mention that he was seeking input for the consumer division, not the professional division, and said so numerous times.

But if anything, it says not to panic, and something more along the lines of what people are asking for might be in the works a little further down the road, from the consumer division.

If a thread is started by someone for the specific purpose of sending feedback to Panasonic, such as by a Jan or by Barry saying what he says, then yeah, you'd expect it to get to Panasonic. But I don't think you can expect that of every single thread.

There's no substitute taking it straight into the lion's den. For my own part, that's how I've managed to get changes made in, say, Premiere and Vegas.

I actually think that what is being missed by virtually everybody here - in spite of what Barry makes clear in the above - is that you can't simply talk of "Panasonic" when talking about cameras.

That is clearly true, and it's something I referenced obliquely earlier. The division of Panasonic which released this camera is made up of sales guys and engineers, not market researchers or professional shooters. I actually know them personally.

 

[David Jimerson]

but isn't that kind of their job, to know what people want?

i mean, if you are designing a camera..
and there is a forum with thousands of people who used the previous version..
wouldn't you think to look there to find out what people want in a new camera?
to me, that sounds a lot more effective than sitting back and waiting for some random emails to show up in your inbox.

david, i do see your point about if you didn't vote you shouldn't complain. i just think panasonic could have done better market research.

I think the expectation that you'll be heard just by posting here is a bit much. If there's a thread specifically asking for it, then yeah. But as a general practice, not so much.

Of course, it's not like there's been any clear consensus to be had from the many threads here at DVXuser. Lots and lots of different people sure seem to want lots and lots of different things. Even in this thread, there seem to be a number of people who are happy with it, and some who are not. If you were Panasonic, which posts would you follow?

All I'm saying is that the direct approach is likely to be more effective than hoping they're paying attention to every word on a message board. I mean, if you want to date a girl, are you going to have better luck talking about it on Facebook and hoping she reads it, or by going up and asking her? (And if you don't ask, are you going to complain if she dates someone else who does?)

 

[joe 1008]

i just think panasonic could have done better market research.

I think that's what they did. They came up with an unique product. For all the other needs there are many products on the market.

I think the problem is an other. Tools became too good. A GH4 is already, give or take something, a Red1 for 1/10 the price. We now have low budget tools for all the needs. And now there is an all in one camera that works straight out of the box, that would have been totally incredible, pure science fiction, just a few years ago. Did we invent filmmaking today? Did moviemaking advance that much in the last couple of years? Are all the fantastic movies done with simple SD cameras obsolete, now? No. Not at all.

And a concept like the DVX200 is just helping us to make a good job. A couple of years ago this camera would have been a mere science fiction tale.

 

[The Irish TRex]

I think they should give 1/2 off to those that still own their original DVX100 (with receipt). Just sayin'.

 

[Barry_Green]

Thanks Barry! As long as there is something beyond AVCHD I will be pleased as I like the form factor. 1080p120 sounds amazing.

I cannot say for certain, but I also cannot imagine that it won't have at least the higher bitrate recording options found on the X1000. I am typing this from my phone on the show floor so I can't verify the X1000's 1080 recording modes but IIRC they include 25, 50 and I think 100mbps. Definitely notably higher quality than AVCHD.

 

[ugafan]

All I'm saying is that the direct approach is likely to be more effective than hoping they're paying attention to every word on a message board. I mean, if you want to date a girl, are you going to have better luck talking about it on Facebook and hoping she reads it, or by going up and asking her? (And if you don't ask, are you going to complain if she dates someone else who does?)

yes, but the way i see it, panasonic is doing the asking. they are asking consumers to buy their product. the consumers are the ones who say if they'll go for it or not. the responsibility is on panasonic to find out what the consumers want.

 

[Barry_Green]

...Is there an actual Panasonic conduit where we

not since Jan retired. Perhaps that will change in the future; right now I can funnel a few things to a few Panasonic personnel I have met through the years, but it isn't the same as when Jan was here and actively participating.

 

[Barry_Green]

Throw the women at me, Barry:love4: but, Panasonic, please give uns the possibility to do all that 10-bit 4:4:4 stuff internally. (or at least 4:2:2) this camera is designed for fast and easy delivery, so please implement some codec that fits the camera's concept im post production as well.

I have already loudly trumpeted that request.

 

[philiplipetz]

I cannot say for certain, but I also cannot imagine that it won't have at least the higher bitrate recording options found on the X1000. I am typing this from my phone on the show floor so I can't verify the X1000's 1080 recording modes but IIRC they include 25, 50 and I think 100mbps. Definitely notably higher quality than AVCHD.

Here are the HD rates for the X1000

High Definition
MP4
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (100 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (50 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 29.97 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 29.97 fps (50 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 23.98 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 23.98 fps (50 Mbps)
High Definition
MOV
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (100 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (50 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 29.97 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 29.97 fps (50 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 23.98 fps (200 Mbps)
1920 x 1080p / 23.98 fps (50 Mbps)
High Definition
AVCHD Progressive
1920 x 1080p / 59.94 fps (28 Mbps)
1920 x 1080i / 59.94 fps (24 Mbps)
1920 x 1080i / 59.94 fps (17 Mbps)
1920 x 1080i / 59.94 fps (5 Mbps)
1280 x 720p / 59.94 fps (8 Mbps)

 

[David Jimerson]

yes, but the way i see it, panasonic is doing the asking. they are asking consumers to buy their product. the consumers are the ones who say if they'll go for it or not. the responsibility is on panasonic to find out what the consumers want.

Who says they didn't? There are actually more people even in this thread saying they like the DVX200 than those who are complaining about it. Plus, they've got stacks and stacks of sales data telling them what people buy, rather than what they say they want.

But going by what all is said here at DVXuser, over many, many threads, what specific camera would you have engineered?

 

[Thomas Smet]

I think the main issue here is that this forum is full of film makers or those with more of a cinema style approach to what they create. A camera like this is more geared towards a video production company that specializes in live and corporate video.

For live video streaming, live events, sports, educational markets, TV broadcasts and corporate video gigs this camera is a great product that finally gives those users a prosumer (theres that old school word) 4k video camera that gets really close to DSLR level quality with very close to the form factor of a traditional work horse take it out of the bag and start shooting gorgeous video in ten seconds kind of a video camera. There are those who always wished they could have a brighter 13x power zoom lens on their GH4. Well here it is, sort of. Just has a camera body attached to the end of the lens.

As much as the film community may not think so, there is a much larger video world out there than DSLRs and cinema cameras. Yeah we get the cooler toys and the nifty accessories but we are a niche market within a niche market.

The DVX200 could be awesome for broadcast and thats what NAB is really about. Good for Panasonic for making a stellar quality video camera instead of making yet another cinema camera or DSLR mutant.

 

[philiplipetz]

The DVX200 could be awesome for broadcast and thats what NAB is really about. Good for Panasonic for making a stellar quality video camera instead of making yet another cinema camera or DSLR mutant.

Then it needs broadcast standard codecs or it will work only through the HDMI out. I hope Pannie realizes that Canon introduced the XC10, a 1" sensor fixed 10X zoom 4K camera with 4:2:2 codecs at broadcast bit ratesat

 

[vanvideo]

Well, after reading many of these comments, I'll go on record and say I really like this camera - based on what we know about it right now. I'm definitely more broadcast-centric, but a lot of my clients are requesting shallow depth of field for their interviews. This is no S35, but it still should beat my 1/2" sensor cam.
So this camera, for me, ticks a lot of boxes:

4K.
Pro connections: SDI, Timecode (very important!), HDMI, XLRs.
Small size
Small price.
Large sensor.
Fixed zoom lens (some of us like fixed zooms).
SD cards.

The codec? Not sure right now.

The bottom line is, can I make money from this camera as a freelancer?
Absolutely!
It can be used for a wide variety of shoots: broadcast, news, documentary, corporate, industrial, sports, events, weddings, whatever. Even independent films.
Bravo, Panasonic, for making an all-in-one, do-all camera.
And please keep the red and carbon fiber!

 

[ugafan]

But going by what all is said here at DVXuser, over many, many threads, what specific camera would you have engineered?

the panasonic ursa mini. (ours has ND filters) :laugh:

 

[originalauthor]

I think this camera will surprise alot of people. Its one of the most practical cameras one can buy in the near future. I think Panasonic will have this camera produce a very good image. There is huge market for this.

 

[Josh Bass]

I'm sorry guys, I am still confused when it comes to the various sensor sizes, trying to research it only furthers the confusion. Pretend like I'm 5 years old, and tell me how m4/3 compares to full frame (in widescreen terms)? Is it similar or similar enough to the C100 sensor size? I hear some of you talk about doing sports with it which would make it seem that that sensor size would have very deep DOF. never really worked with an Af100 so that comparison wont help me. Thanks.

 

[Darren Levine]

I'm sorry guys, I am still confused when it comes to the various sensor sizes, trying to research it only furthers the confusion. Pretend like I'm 5 years old, and tell me how m4/3 compares to full frame (in widescreen terms)? Is it similar or similar enough to the C100 sensor size? I hear some of you talk about doing sports with it which would make it seem that that sensor size would have very deep DOF. never really worked with an Af100 so that comparison wont help me. Thanks.

4/3 is half of full frame 35mm, but it also slightly depends on how much active area of the sensor is being used for the actual FOV, being half the size of FF gives you a nice chunk more DOF to play with, which some folks don't like, but its still significantly larger than s16, and you can get a shallow DOF if you want, but a deep DOF if necessary. it's a notch below cropped, 1.6x sensors as well(c100 included), which is why the speedbooster is so liked for shrinking those lenses down to m43 and gaining the stop in speed