AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder

Barry_Green said:
Keep in mind that unlike Blackmagic, or AJA's CION, or even the Reds, you never hear of Panasonics being two, three, four, six, or 10 months late to market. Back in April they said it'd ship in October, and it'll ship in October. They know what they're doing.
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I've no reason to believe it won't ship in October, never said anything else. But for such to happen it's likely they must be gearing up for full production NOW, it may even have started. As such, they need to have finalised the basic design to enable tooling up the production line - which means most of the final design must also be fixed. What I'm therefore saying is that any changes suggested via feedback NOW will only be able to be implemented if they're relatively straightforward.

The impression I had was that these results were from early production models - which ties in with the timescale I'd expect - not "hand-built prototypes". They'd have to be if Panasonic are to meet their own timelines.
Barry_Green said:
How can they possibly get feedback before they've even built the first hand-built prototype? The Engineering Sample that Noel had a couple of weeks ago is the very first one made. What these people used is the second iteration, only a couple of weeks later.
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It's the handbuilt prototypes that I'd expect the basic feedback from, and I'd expect that to have happened a few months ago - before Noel got access. That would have to be the case to give time to implement the feedback into the design well before any production line started to be built.

I believe the typical time from conception to shipping of a product like this is somewhere between 1 and 2 years, and first prototype likely to be about half way through that cycle. But the only people to know about it being under very strict NDA. What's likely to be happening now is "bug-fixing" of the early production run.
 
I know that even I can get picky with camera specs, performance, etc. BUT...............just take a moment and look where we are at with this camera, what it can/should do and what price point it meets....all while doing many things.

I am in awe and I will probably get one. So many times I'm trying to make my GH4 work in various scenarios and it becomes a pain due to add-ons. I think that, although not as capable as some other cameras (costing way more), the all-in-one design may just allow more people to get the look they want (within reason) faster, easier, and arguably.....better than many options out there now.

I'm not a Panasonic Fanboy but I am actually pretty excited to see what people can do with this camera. One lens, built-in ND, large(ish) sensor, 60P 4K internal, V-log. All I can say is WOW. That is, unless it falls on its face which seems unlikely.
 
harddrive said:
But for such to happen it's likely they must be gearing up for full production NOW, it may even have started.
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Ah, sorry, I didn't realize you were an accomplished expert in camera production and knew more than the company does. Silly me, I thought the company knew what they were doing.

Seriously -- dude, come on. They know what they're doing. And I've been down this road with them many, many times before -- I've seen their process. I've toured their factory. I've seen engineering samples and preproduction prototypes. This is how they do things. Will we see them change to an interchangeable lens design at this point -- of course not. Will we see changes to connectors, or operational controls? Maybe. Will we see software changes? Most definitely. Substantial changes? Maybe, depending on how important the feedback is. There are things that won't change -- they're not going to swap out the sensor, for example, unless it just wasn't getting the job done. So some components are fixed -- what processor they're going to use, what sensor they're using, etc. And some things are not settled yet. These are most definitely not finished, production-ready models, there are still several things that are unfinished or not even enabled yet.

The impression I had was that these results were from early production models - which ties in with the timescale I'd expect - not "hand-built prototypes". They'd have to be if Panasonic are to meet their own timelines.
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Your impression is wrong. These are hand-assembled. There may even be 3D-printed parts on it for all I know. Sure, much of the hardware is intended to be finished, but sometimes things need to change. And have no fear about them meeting their timelines -- as said before, they've been doing this for decades, they know what they're doing.

It's the handbuilt prototypes that I'd expect the basic feedback from, and I'd expect that to have happened a few months ago - before Noel got access.
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Your expectations are wrong. Noel had the very first partly-working camera that they had ever built. I mean, sure, the engineers had wired a sensor to a processor on a circuit board and duct-taped a lens onto the front of it months ago, but this is the first time the pieces have been assembled together into something that looks like what they intend an actual camera to be like.

That would have to be the case to give time to implement the feedback into the design well before any production line started to be built.
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Your expectation is wrong. Seriously -- they know what they're doing -- I do hope you can acknowledge that.

I believe the typical time from conception to shipping of a product like this is somewhere between 1 and 2 years, and first prototype likely to be about half way through that cycle. But the only people to know about it being under very strict NDA. What's likely to be happening now is "bug-fixing" of the early production run.
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With all due respect -- you simply do not have an accurate understanding of how this particular company produces products. And they've been successfully producing them for decades. It doesn't matter to me whether you believe what I'm saying or not, because -- look -- I know what I'm talking about. I saw the very first wooden mockup when it was first being considered. I have the second-generation engineering sample in my hands now. They are exactly on track with all the other cameras that they've released that I've seen the development process of.
 
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Bassman2003 said:
As far as price vs pro. Well take a look at the PX270. You can't get any more pro with that camera and its price is not that far away. Panasonic is playing a little game of chicken here imho. They are putting together a lot of things that people have been asking for for quite some time, but leaving out the huge thing they have developed over the years - P2. Now the Micro P2 is part of the ecosystem and is more affordable, why would you not lead with this to sell your new design? Instead they are leaving a hole where the recording specs are concerned which only adds some doubt. You can still offer the 4:2:0 usual suspects and have P2 in the same camera. The PX270 allows you to use regular SD cards. I just don't understand building a system then not utilizing it.
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Like I stated before, my (thoroughly uneducated) guess is simplicity of manufacturing. They probably did some research to figure out how many sales they would lose by not including 4:2:2 and instead including what are probably a lot of the internals from the GH4 and HC-X1000, saving both on manufacturing cost and R&D, and hopefully resulting in a cheaper camera... versus how many sales they would lose from a higher price point resulting from putting in the R&D to develop new internal components that were specific to this camera only that could do 4:2:0 4k, plus also do some flavors of AVC-Ultra (which would probably suck the battery life a lot faster like the PX270), plus maybe the cost of installing micro-P2 hardware. My guess is they figured it was more profitable in the long run to just stick with 4:2:0 with existing components for their target audience.

They're going to lose some sales since it's not 4:2:2 internally, no doubt... but they're probably going to pick up a lot of sales depending on what it finally sells for. I mean, the PX270 when first released in spring of last year in the ballpark of MSRP $6,500. The MSRP of the DVX200 is going to be at least $1,500 less. And while it doesn't have P2 adding to it's cost, it does have that spiffy new 4/3 f/2.8-f4 14mm-183mm servo lens which is probably a whole lot more expensive than the PX270's lens to manufacture.
 
Barry_Green said:
10-bit definitely does have an advantage there, yes. But, then again, Canon introduced their C300 with C-Log at 8-bit, and apparently to a thunderous reception. I'd prefer 10-bit, obviously, but I doubt 8-bit is going to prove to be some unmanageable problem.
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Looking back, there is this thread - http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?266113-Canon-EOS-c300 - from 3½ years ago when the C300 was first released. Yes, that camera created a lot of interest, but right from the start the lack of 10 bit - on a camera with log curves - was seen as undesirable. And that was 3½ years ago.

True, it didn't stop it from being highly successful, but a lot of that was due to "if not the C300, what else?" And for maybe the first time it married a large sensor with high quality imaging and a fully approved broadcast codec. And if your work was fairly fast turn around (not too much time for extensive post) it's also true that not too much would be gained from 10 bit.

But there was no surprise when the C300 Mk2 comes along with 10 bit. Same with all of Sonys pro range with XAVC. What was "OK" over 3 years ago is far less so now. And regarding external recorders, then I don't believe it's true that "people have used EX1s for years in BBC production by attaching a Nano". When the BBC upgraded their handhelds a few years ago they went with a bulk purchase of Canon XF300's. The 1/3" chip went against it - but was seen as the lesser evil compared to codec choice or the inconvenience of a separate recorder.

As for "WHY" such as 10bit hasn't been included in the DVX200, then it's my understanding that it's because the front end was primarily designed for hybrid/still/video. (A forthcoming GH5?) I've already said that it's a sign of the advances made that such appears now able to be fully scanned, deBayered and scaled to 4K at frame rates - with correspondingly high quality. It's pretty impressive, no doubt, but 10 bit would appear to just be a bridge too far. Accepting 8 bit meant much more common usage of technology and helped keep the cost down.

For consumer cameras, DSLR/hybrids I don't expect 10 bit. I'd even question it's importance in a camera without log curves. But what was the accepted norm a few years ago is not seen as such now in the pro market place. And that's what I was really getting at with the previous "what if?" comment - about a possible arrival of ".....something like the front end and lens of the new RX10, with better zoom speed and manual controls etc, with the back end and codecs of the Z100 "
 
Mike Harvey said:
The MSRP of the DVX200 is going to be at least $1,500 less. And while it doesn't have P2 adding to it's cost, it does have that spiffy new 4/3 f/2.8-f4 14mm-183mm servo lens which is probably a whole lot more expensive than the PX270's lens to manufacture.
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I thought in 35mm terms the lens started at 28...
 
All good points. I just don't see P2 as an either or situation, $60,000 or nothing. Is it so much more involved? But what I'm really after is AVC-Ultra long GOP for 1080p recording. That is what it all boils down to for me. 50mbps, manageable backup size with great images. I know everybody loves 4k and its going to change the world etc... but I don't always think the files size and processing time for encoding are worth it for some work. This is not the "hand off the footage" scenario, I am talking about a lot of jobs that are not going to be delivered in 4k. Unless you need to reframe in post it just seems like extra hard drive space from a business point of view if you have a decent 1080p downsample and codec.

This is just internet forum fodder but I would be a lot more rosy on this camera with this type of strong 1080p option. It is a business point of view. Time is money.
 
GaryinCalifornia said:
I thought in 35mm terms the lens started at 28...
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It does... I was citing the actually lens specs vs "35mm terms". Same way the Panasonic 35mm-100mm X lens is listed as 35mm-100mm, and not 70mm-200mm (which is what it is in 35mm terms). In 35mm terms, it's 28mm-365.3mm in HD (4k is slightly different).
 
Barry_Green said:
If 1080/720 is your concern, then remember, you can always shoot in 4k, downconvert in post, you'll have 10-bit 4:4:4.
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Hi, I've seen this referred to before and I know to some extent how color subsampling works (I'm an engineer working in broadcast). I don't get the 8b 420 -> 10b 444 path, do you care to reference the processing path and which hw/sw does it reliably. thanks.
 
I think the camera looks interesting. Come in at about $3900 and you have a total winner for ENG/DOC/Run and Gun applications. Then, take the internals and stick it in the AF200 for the folks that want interchangeable lensing.
 
dustylense said:
I think the camera looks interesting. Come in at about $3900 and you have a total winner for ENG/DOC/Run and Gun applications. Then, take the internals and stick it in the AF200 for the folks that want interchangeable lensing.
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That about covers it. Stick a stamp on it and send it to Panasonic!
 
I don't understand the rationale here by Panasonic. They could have released this thing without a fixed lens, charged exactly the same price as they are now and made more money. Basically a more functional GH4. Boggles the mind. Isn't it a known fact at this price that if you are going to include a fixed lens it should at least be a constant 2.8? Again, boggles the mind.
 
None of the competing cameras in this price range are a constant aperture. My FDR-AX1 is a similar price point and has a F1.6 to F3.4 range much like my HD NX5U or many others at this price point. So for me no surprise at all.
 
DC Brandon said:
I don't understand the rationale here by Panasonic. They could have released this thing without a fixed lens, charged exactly the same price as they are now and made more money. Basically a more functional GH4. Boggles the mind. Isn't it a known fact at this price that if you are going to include a fixed lens it should at least be a constant 2.8? Again, boggles the mind.
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A 13x optical zoom with a constant 2.8? That request boggles the mind.....

And what price are we talking about?
 
DC Brandon said:
I don't understand the rationale here by Panasonic. They could have released this thing without a fixed lens, charged exactly the same price as they are now and made more money. Basically a more functional GH4. Boggles the mind. Isn't it a known fact at this price that if you are going to include a fixed lens it should at least be a constant 2.8? Again, boggles the mind.
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Would they have made more money? The market is saturated AF100 type cameras... but there are no cameras like the DVX200 on the market. And to be honest, there are a lot of folk with those AF100-type cameras (myself included) would would have not bought into the interchangable lens concept if there was something like the DVX200 available when the AF100 was released and started the trend. The DVX200 is the type of camera... large sensor with a fixed servo zoom lens... that a lot of folks wish had been available, but technical limitions didn't really make that feasable back then. And the DVX200 probably would have eaten into sales of an AF200 too much to make it really feasable.

And as stated before me, there are absolutley no fixed lens cameras on the market that are constant apature. Heck, even the $10,000-$15,000 lenses you see on 2/3" shoulder ENG cams aren't fixed aperture... expecting that on a sub-$5k camera with a much larger sensor and this much of a zoom range isn't realistic.
 
YES!

Also keep in mind a $5000 camera that isn't fixed lens isn't really a $5000 camera. . .you have to factor in cost of lenses to make it shootable. SOME of us don't own any lenses (cough cough me), so my $5000 camera just became maybe a $7000 or $8000 camera.
 
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