AF100 vs. Red One: A non-definitive, but instructive test...

Well, to make up for my whining and b*tching... I'll donate a RedOne MX camera, a set of Cooke prime lenses and some 1k fresnels or HMI's if you ever want to do it for realzies on the West Coast.

-Ryan
 
Barry_Green said:
People are going to want a GH2 vs. AF100 shootout. Why would I do that? Even if the images are identical, the AF100 is so embarrassingly superior in every conceivable way that there is simply *no comparison*. I've bought a GH2 and will shortly have an AF100 of my own when the boat lands (or the plane lands or whatever). I like the GH2 for what it is. I love it for what it is, actually. I just am not going to delude myself into thinking it's something other than what it is.
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Barry, I almost always agree with you, but here, I'm quite disappointed. Why on earth would you worry about nay-sayers and let them dictate what you do? I never understood that attitude. Whatever you do - whatever any man of action does - there are always critics. In fact it's such a cliche, that there's even the age old saying "you can't please everyone". So what should one do? I agree with Teddy Roosevelt:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

What this means, is that you do the best you can, and you don't worry about the naysayers. Go ahead and do the GH2 vs AF100 test. Not because any sane person thinks that the GH2 is equal to the AF100, but for many other reasons. For example, many of us have very special and specific shooting situations, where it would be extremely useful to know how the GH2 compares to the AF100 - what if there are space limitations, and you have to use the GH2 as a B camera and you want to know how the footage would intercut with the AF100. Or if you are shooting in dark interiors with little movement, and want to know if the GH2 would be as valid a choice as the AF100. And in fact, if what you simply want to know is how footage from both looks under the same circumstances, so you can make a decision - not picking winners or losers, but simply the right tool for the job... thing is, not all of us can buy both and test both under controlled circumstances. In other words, only children would ask for a shootout between the two in order to pick a "winner" - most of us are adults, and simply want a test to get the data which will help in countless situations where decisions have to be made about specific shooting scenarios.

I think Barry, you owe it to the readers who put their trust in your skill and honesty to perform this test, and it's just a distraction to blame the naysayers for being naysayers. There will always be naysayers. That has never stopped men of action.

Thanks Barry, and I'm looking forward to the test.
 
I too am going to apoligize if my post(s) signified any disrespect to Leo or Barry. I was not accusing anybody of propagana per se, but it was something that can easily lead to false information, which I think everyone here agrees does not need to happen and we can all do our part to minimize it. Ryan and Barry, both of you guys are corect on all levels, I have total respect for you guys, Barry, you're an Icon here, obviously, and I definitely appreciate the shootouts you have done in the past and all of the info and insight you have provided thus far and continue to provide. Very informitive. But at least those in the past were an attempt to do it precisely and accurately, even with all of the trash talkers. I do agree with you, Barry, that many are just looking for confirmation of their decision, but I also believe that there are many people coming here truly looking for information on which way to turn. I personally have made my camera decisions based off of numerous readings here and asking questions, as well as using the gear before I make a purchase. There are hundreds of guests on the site at any give time and the information they see is what will ultimately persuade them in which direction to go if they are looking to purchase a camera or editor or hardware. So, I definitely agree that we all need to do our part to keep it professional, keep it civil, and keep the information as accurate as possible.
 
There's no reward in it. There's no point to doing it. No joy comes from it. Screw it.

I couldnt agree more with you Barry.

Do your own tests to your own satisfaction.

Share the results if you wish but realise they may have no validity to others. At this point ...they will criticise yours.
 
heh that was fun, thanks!

im going to say af is the x and red is the y but slightly out of focus.
 
Barry_Green said:
With all due respect, it's not possible to do a comparison test that will satisfy everyone. And, more and more, it seems impossible to do one that satisfies ANYone. What you think is "proper" will be bitterly debated by someone else who will insist that an entirely different procedure is "proper."

I organized a six-way shootout way back in the days, HVX vs XLH1 vs FX1 vs HD100 vs VariCam vs F900. Got 11 professionals in a room together, including Jay Nemeth and Evin Grant and Adam Wilt; Adam covered the test for DV magazine. And yes, after participating in the test and then asking them which one they'd buy, 9 of the 11 said they'd buy the HVX. And yes, after that, I got called every name in the book, slandered on websites left and right, and had to threaten legal action to get it to stop.

Adam Wilt told me that organizing a camera comparison is a sure way to misery, because someone's sacred ox is gonna get gored. Look at the Zacuto guys, they tried their big DSLR shootout thing, and people have called them names, questioned their motives, questioned their integrity, and questioned the integrity of the folks who participated in it.

No matter what you do, it's nearly impossible to satisfy anyone with a "shootout". Someone will always point out what you did wrong. And there's a point there -- you can't possibly play to every product's strengths. People showed a 5D looking as good as a Red in many tests -- and frankly that's laughable. Point the cameras at a wide-angle scene and do a little panning and it's obvious the Red is leagues better -- miles and miles better -- but that's what test after test showed, if you do a closeup shallow DOF shot, the 5D looks comparable to the Red. So how do you possibly test every conceivable circumstance to show each at their best, and at their worst? We shot some side-by-side film with the AF100, and people are complaining about that because they're not graded identically. To which I could say, had we graded them identically, people would complain that the film was being limited to only what the AF100 could do, and we should grade them differently to show how much more film could do, etc.

And no matter what you test, there will be folks chipping in saying "why didn't you test THIS?" Just like Zacuto, they tested, what, five or six cameras? And the first thing people are demanding is "why didn't you test them against film?!?!" With no acknowledgement or concession given that the more cameras you add, the more exponentially difficult it becomes to properly and carefully administer such a test.

And if they'd spent the money and gone through the effort to test them on film, someone would have found something new to complain about.

Here's the simple absolute fact -- most people don't want to know the truth. They want to be told that what they already believe, is the truth. They want CONFIRMATION, not INFORMATION. There was a study done on internet surfers that proved that, that when people are researching products they aren't looking for clarification, they're looking for support that what they've already decided to do, is an okay decision.

Which is why I pretty much quit doing comparison tests. Even when I do something as absolute and iron clad and completely indisputable as pointing a camera at a standardized test chart, I get slandered and accused of being part of a marketing machine and all sorts of things.

There's no reward in it. There's no point to doing it. No joy comes from it. Screw it.
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I agree completely Barry. All these cameras are just tools to get the job done, some are better for some jobs and others are better for other jobs, and none are perfect. Some people buy a camera and desperately want to believe it'll do everything it needs to, and as soon as someone say another camera will do something better that person will take it personally and sometimes fight tooth and nail for it. That person doesn't want to believe this shinny new camera that they invested all their hard earned money into is somehow inadequate. A DP needs to always be open to every option available to them. You can't let stuff like this limit your abilities to be a true artist and paint with all the brushes you can. Know where and why a camera excels and where and why it fails, and adjust accordingly with the cameras you have available to you. I personally make as many cameras available to me as possible either by buying them or making deals with people I know that have them so the inconvenience factor is none existent.
 
I don't usually post this often in these types of threads, but I'm going to go one more.

OldCorpse said:
I think Barry, you owe it to the readers who put their trust in your skill and honesty to perform this test, and it's just a distraction to blame the naysayers for being naysayers. There will always be naysayers. That has never stopped men of action.

Thanks Barry, and I'm looking forward to the test.
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I know this was a very respectful post. But anyone who thinks Barry (or anyone else) on this forum owes us anything is (IMHO) mistaken. There are those who choose to take the precious little time they have out of their busy schedules to share what they learn. They usually get criticized. I have learned more about my craft from Barry and countless others on this site than all other sources combined. I owe them, not the other way around.

Would I like to see such a test? Sure. I believe that Barry has always been as objective as humanly possible. I would trust his results as being unbiased.

But does he owe it to us? Not even close.
 
Barry, your spot-on with the comment that most people want confirmation, not information; especially when they already own something.

The response to a shootout is most curious. People had the pre-production AF100/101 and shot some material and posted it. No one cried foul. One could do the same for any other camera and no one would cry foul. But if you shot the same material with two cameras and posted it, then the feathers get ruffled. Very odd. That's too bad because I like shoot outs. I do find them useful. A single frame comparison has left many wondering what they are looking at, but that shouldn't stop someone from doing a comparison of the two cameras. I think shootout is really a bad term for an AF100/RED comparison. Someone should just go out and go out for a day and shoot similar material with both cameras with the same lens and post it. Will it prove anything? No, it's not supposed to. It's to be done to allow each of us that don't have an opportunity to have both cameras to see what they do side-by-side so that we can make our own judgements.

Badmouthing posts such as this one does not serve the community well. It discourages rather than encourages. Sure, no one wants unfair comparisons done by those with an agenda, but there certainly are people in the community that have no stake in the game that can provide us all with information. I appreciate the efforts and hope they will continue.
 
Jim Brennan said:
Guys, before you all start overthinking this (too late), I'm pretty sure that Leo's main point was not "this better than that" as much as "Look, this thing holds up pretty damn well."
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Jim said it all. For $5K and some change, we'll get a look that no one will have to make excuses for. Personally, I've spent 7 times this amount on video cams in the past and never could get close to a look like the AF 100.
 
oh my... with every day all of that is getting more and more interesting. Seems like now the camera is never enough for anyone to shoot movies, some are waiting for af100, as 5d, 7d, gh2 or something else is not good, others say 'if you cant have 5k, then movie is not future proof'...

what a disappointment. It's been told by hundreds, any camera is good to shoot a good movie. If you shoot a load of horse poo with 50k resolution video camera, it will not become a load of gold on the screen, just will make that load of poo vomit, while watching SD version, it even might have been not that bad :)

It's all 'consumerism' - faster, better, more pixels, more everything, most of all, your precious money for somebody who is enjoying it next to a biiiig pool in a mantion. Do you need 1k, 2k, or 5k? Do you need 10 or 200 mbits/s compression? Guess 90% of those who want 'the best' don't even know how to make the best out of it, it's just the wish to have the best and then i'm gonna be the best. Driving Ferrari F1 on the same track with other f1 drivers will only make you look worse, than if you were driving a cart and being the best between your friends.

Go out and shoot :)
 
I agree: we owe Barry a lot of thanks and he owes us zilch! I also agree: these tests are more or less useless but they create sometimes interesting threads and this thread is very good! So I would like to thank the TO for doing it ;-)
 
Shooter said:
There's no reward in it. There's no point to doing it. No joy comes from it. Screw it.

I couldnt agree more with you Barry.

Do your own tests to your own satisfaction.

Share the results if you wish but realise they may have no validity to others. At this point ...they will criticise yours.
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I think the biggest thing coming out of these tests is -- most tools are good enough now to achieve your creative vision. Now we as filmmakers have the luxury to use cameras at several different price points to get the movies in our heads onto screens and in front of audiences.

If these tests are so close that results are skewed because of technique, that favors the craftsman that knows the techniques, if anyone could get any look at any time that's a recipe for blandness, mediocrity and the commoditization of talent.

Now it is what we as individuals bring to the table in terms of talent, craft, and skill, not the limitations of budget, access to tools, and inability to get our work seen.
 
I would like to see a shootout between the Red and AF100 to see which one tells better stories.
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WWWWWWAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zak...you made the milk from my cereal come out my nose! :)
 
OldCorpse said:
Barry, I almost always agree with you, but here, I'm quite disappointed.
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I understand what you're saying, but -- instead of disagreeing or being disappointed, you may actually be agreeing with me. Because my reason for not bothering with a GH2 vs. AF100 test is -- I don't care. The only reason to do it, would be because someone else wanted it. To me there's pretty much no reason to do it, and I would only be drawn into doing it by trying to please others. Which would be the exact same thing as caring what the critics think.

I don't know if you can see it that way, but that's what I mean. I've tried to go around pleasing folks by giving them what they want, and found that it's pretty much impossible. Now I'm more interested in finding out what the truth is and posting my own reactions and letting the chips fall where they may.

For example, many of us have very special and specific shooting situations, where it would be extremely useful to know how the GH2 compares to the AF100 - what if there are space limitations, and you have to use the GH2 as a B camera and you want to know how the footage would intercut with the AF100. Or if you are shooting in dark interiors with little movement, and want to know if the GH2 would be as valid a choice as the AF100. And in fact, if what you simply want to know is how footage from both looks under the same circumstances, so you can make a decision - not picking winners or losers, but simply the right tool for the job... thing is, not all of us can buy both and test both under controlled circumstances. In other words, only children would ask for a shootout between the two in order to pick a "winner" - most of us are adults, and simply want a test to get the data which will help in countless situations where decisions have to be made about specific shooting scenarios.
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Understood, and there may come scenarios where I do that kind of thing, and if so, I will be posting the results. I posted the charts about ETC mode because I was quite curious about it for my own purposes; if I get similarly curious about GH2 vs. AF100 in similar scenarios I may indeed post such things. But in the past I've tried to answer the call of putting together a big ol' shootout, and that's what I'm saying I'm not bothering with anymore. There's no point to it.

Does that make more sense?
 
Here's the simple absolute fact -- most people don't want to know the truth. They want to be told that what they already believe, is the truth. They want CONFIRMATION, not INFORMATION. There was a study done on internet surfers that proved that, that when people are researching products they aren't looking for clarification, they're looking for support that what they've already decided to do, is an okay decision....


...There is simply no way to win.


...I will continue to dig for the truth, and share it when I find it. I have to be content with the idea that some people will be infuriated by it, some will appreciate it, and a few out there might be informed by it. But for many folks, the question of "which should I buy" can realistically only be answered one way: "Buy whichever one you want. Because that's what you're going to do anyway." If you truly, truly want to believe that an AF100 will outperform a Red, then buy the AF100 and be happy and go get to work with it. If you truly, truly want to believe that a 7D is as good as a Red, then go get your 7D and be happy and put it to work. It isn't as good as a Red, of course; the whole notion is silly. But does it matter? Great work can be done with one, so go and do some. Of course, according to the PGA/ASC tests, the Red isn't as good as the Alexa or F35 either. But does it matter? It's good enough for Pirates 4, so ... unless you're doing something more demanding than they are, then maybe it's good enough?
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Hey Barry...no question this is true. That said....here's something else that is true.

Some of us here on DVXUser have AND WILL shoot on ANY brand of camera at ANY appropriate time in order to tell the story. Some of us have NO EMOTION attached to our equipment. Some of us won't hesitate to sell a camera 'long in the tooth' on Ebay, simply to turn around and buy a better suited camera for our present needs. Some of us DEEPLY APPRECIATE targeted well thought out tests. (No question, some are better than others.....having shot some tests myself I can agree how hard they can be to do....and the whining resonates loud and clear) But some of us here appreciate the effort from you and others and simply don't care what looks like which.....it's all just DATA that goes in the brain bucket to be called out at a later time when making an investment for a specific purpose/project.

Bottom line: I'm sure I'm not the only one who worries when you talk like this Barry....your contribution to my personal learning is deeply appreciated (I know you don't do it for me...but I personally appreciate it). It would be a loss for you to hold back. You "gotta do what you gotta do"....but don't lose heart. Some of us are listening intently and are thrilled what we have learned from you so far...and what we will yet learn.

ps.....of course you should choose the stuff that inspires you to test as each person should do the same.
 
HHL said:
Hey Barry...no question this is true. That said....here's something else that is true.

Some of us here on DVXUser have AND WILL shoot on ANY brand of camera at ANY appropriate time in order to tell the story. Some of us have NO EMOTION attached to our equipment. Some of us won't hesitate to sell a camera 'long in the tooth' on Ebay, simply to turn around and buy a better suited camera for our present needs. Some of us DEEPLY APPRECIATE targeted well thought out tests. (No question, some are better than others.....having shot some tests myself I can agree how hard they can be to do....and the whining resonates loud and clear) But some of us here appreciate the effort from you and others and simply don't care what looks like which.....it's all just DATA that goes in the brain bucket to be called out at a later time when making an investment for a specific purpose/project.

Bottom line: I'm sure I'm not the only one who worries when you talk like this Barry....your contribution to my personal learning is deeply appreciated (I know you don't do it for me...but I personally appreciate it). It would be a loss for you to hold back. You "gotta do what you gotta do"....but don't lose heart. Some of us are listening intently and are thrilled what we have learned from you so far...and what we will yet learn.

ps.....of course you should choose the stuff that inspires you to test as each person should do the same.
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Amen to this. All the information on this site is HUGELY HUGELY appreciated by me. Not all of us are emotionally wrapped up in our gear.
 
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