AF100 external recorder - Ninja 2 or Samurai?

I'm talking about the flexibility to rearrange buttons, or add new buttons to do different things. On my scarlet, I have a touch screen that has changed functionality many times. It's not for everyone, but it has it's advantages. Hard buttons are prone to problems too. Lots of options. Nothing is perfect.
 
As Bob says...flexibilty of software buttons (in firmware) versus hardware buttons.

The Samurai has had a number of buttons / functions added and improved via firmware updates (free) that would not have occured with hardware buttons.

That extends the product life and allows the user to benefit from ongoing development of the device.
 
bgundu said:
I'm talking about the flexibility to rearrange buttons, or add new buttons to do different things. On my scarlet, I have a touch screen that has changed functionality many times. It's not for everyone, but it has it's advantages. Hard buttons are prone to problems too. Lots of options. Nothing is perfect.
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Good point, I can't exactly move the function buttons of the Shuttle around as they are fixed in place. The samurai can update its user experience over time I guess. For a camera that's pretty cool but on a recorder without a screen it just isn't a problem. I plug my shuttle in, pick one if only 3 recording option and off I go, I touch no more than the power button and the review buttons. That simplicity is great but on a tool such as the scarlet and samurai I can see how os functionality could be improved.
 
Shooter said:
As Bob says...flexibilty of software buttons (in firmware) versus hardware buttons.

The Samurai has had a number of buttons / functions added and improved via firmware updates (free) that would not have occured with hardware buttons.

That extends the product life and allows the user to benefit from ongoing development of the device.
Click to expand...

Yeah I get that and its pretty cool but then it does have a screen and is trying to be two products in one, it could be argued the additions they gave you on the screen should have been there from the start?. The shuttle is this little dumb brick and has had added functionality via firmware update such as prores recording options but not much else, there is a display button tht does nothing at the moment for example that will hopefully be made active for simple overlays to be switched on and off.

The only thing is that I can forgive a £225 device for a few things as long as it does its main job well, I can't forgive a £1200 device but from what I hear the samurai works flawlessly. For the money I feel my approach makes sense but each to there own.

i take it you're a Atomos customer shooter?
 
I've had mine for a while, and its was the most affordable then. I wanted ProRes and the Shuttle did not have it either. But the Samurai is able to use cheaper spinning drives which made it way cheaper. I've taken it to India and back with no issues.
 
bgundu said:
I've had mine for a while, and its was the most affordable then. I wanted ProRes and the Shuttle did not have it either. But the Samurai is able to use cheaper spinning drives which made it way cheaper. I've taken it to India and back with no issues.
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Yeah same here, I wrote the shuttle off without prores, I don't want DNxHD and uncompressed was overkill for the AF100. I was putting the cash together for the Samurai as i had a host if short films coming up leading to a low budget feature just when the update for the shuttle happened and all of a sudden I had extra money for all of my SSDs, the mounting plate, cables, Docking station and even a Small HD DP4 EVF. We was renting the v-locks and plates with the film budgets anyway so I had a good £300 left in my pocket.
 
i take it you're a Atomos customer shooter?
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I do have a Samurai. Yes. Wouldnt shoot AVCD without it on the camera.

Its benefits are wider than its being just an external recorder with better codecs to me.

Its INSURANCE , EFFICIENCY and FLEXIBILITY as well.

Saves time, money and worry. I sleep very well at the end of a shoot with dual recorded media...and I get home early to do so. We rarely do other back ups at end of day ( no reason to do so).

The least thingthe Samurai is to me is a Video Monitor (It is only rarely turned on). We have another Onboard monitor as well multiple broadcast monitors on and around the set.

FWIW - we only use SSDs in the Samurai.
 
Shooter said:
I do have a Samurai. Yes. Wouldnt shoot AVCD without it on the camera.

Its benefits are wider than its being just an external recorder with better codecs to me.

Its INSURANCE , EFFICIENCY and FLEXIBILITY as well.

Saves time, money and worry. I sleep very well at the end of a shoot with dual recorded media...and I get home early to do so. We rarely do other back ups at end of day ( no reason to do so).

The least thingthe Samurai is to me is a Video Monitor (It is only rarely turned on). We have another Onboard monitor as well multiple broadcast monitors on and around the set.

FWIW - we only use SSDs in the Samurai.
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You now sound like the perfect Shuttle customer ;0) but I guess when you got the Samurai it was the best overall choice as the shuttle didnt have prores?

with you on the insurance, efficiency, flexibility points (why are you shouting?)

Im with you on the SSDs too, spinners are a no go for me, I've had them fail just sitting in a desktop dock, no way I'm putting them on a camera let alone packed my camera bag. We do use two back up spinners for the SSD back up though.
 
One for vote for a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 over any other recorder out there unless you need 4:4:4. Does all the others do now, has hardware buttons instead of touch screens, which I also prefer and it's dirty cheap. The only thing they could add to it is Cineform. There's not much to update in a recorder's interface if it's well planned from the beginning. It's a deck! Decks have had the same interface for ages now. Play, stop, forward, backward, record etc. I don't miss the screen at all as I have it mounted in a position that I wouldn't be able to use it as a monitor anyway. I also have two onboard external monitors already.

It's interesting to see though that despite putting down the use of an external recorder with the AF100 as being basically useless, it seems many actually use one.
 
We seem to have some Shuttle evangelists here. <g>

I have no doubt the Shuttle is a good unit that will fit the bill for many people.

Of course, these are just tools and each person should choose the tools that fit their own needs. My approach is similar to Shooter's except that I have also found benefit from the built-in monitor when shooting -- even with high-quality external monitors also on set. Like him, I normally use SSDs. It's nice to know that I could just pop a spinning drive into a spare carrier if I ever needed to do so.

I considered the Shuttle prior to getting a Samurai and decided the latter gave me more of the features I wanted, including either DNxHD or ProRes, each in a choice of data rates, which means no transcoding prior to editing -- whether it's going to our Avid or the FCP system. I'm also a fan of the long battery life and ease of just popping on another couple of batteries for super long run times. For my uses, I also appreciate the ability to view the day's work in a convenient, self-contained, easily-portable package.

Those are features that fit my needs.

To each his or her own.
 
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Hmm decisions decisions, thanks for all the input it is going to be hard to finally opt for one. In terms of actual picture quality- would there be any massive difference between what the shuttle records and the samurai? (And as i edit in adobe cs5.5 I assumed it would be best if i opt for the apple pro res right? This codec is new to me a little frightened). But I guess for the independent film route I definitely want to get the best possible image and so I feel now I'm definitely going to have to opt for an external recorder (also I like that i can record to cards to, for insurance if shooting weddings etc).

Couple more questions, in regards to the shuttle, would it be really necessary to get the dp4 or a monitor for it, i already own the dp6 so can i not just switch between them? Or wait till i get into the editing room and just look back at footage via the sd card? And i don't suppose XSV you have any pictures of your shuttle set up? Finallllly, it sounds like universally everyone is on board with SSDs over hds, so is there a particular go to one? I've seen a few of you mention the sandisks, they provenish? Thanks again,
 
No. In terms of quality you would need a Gemini to get better quality. But with the AF100 that would be basically useless.

The thing is, most people who got a Samurai or other recorders did so because this was all that was available which recorded the codecs they wanted at the time. The Shuttle just now records ProRes and even DNxHD was not very long ago. It started as an uncompressed only recorder which to most is just overkill and not practical. So now since they already have it (Samurai or whatever), of course they will swear by it and they are good products. But now with ProRes in the Shuttle I wonder how many would pay 4 times more for the other. The other reason would be the screen. Some think it saves money on a monitor or just need a visual interface. I don't like combined things. As XVS said if one breaks the other goes together with it to the shop. The monitor function is pointless for me. On top of that I don't miss a visual interface with the Shuttle. I have enough SSD that I don't need to worry about it feeling up (many don't like that it doesn't show you how much media is left) and it playback fine to an external monitor.

I would never use a HDD as an onboard recording medium even if the Shuttle could use one. I stick with SSDs. They are cheap enough and very reliable. I recommend OCZ Vertex 3. I use them and have never had a problem.
 
You dont need the DP4 at all, thats just what i went for (DP4-EVF) as i wanted shoulder mount for broadcast and its specs (800x480) are the closest to the screen you get in a Samurai (for a fair price comparison). In fact you don't need a monitor at all to be honest. Your DP6 is fine, more than fine, simply plug that into the shuttle and then you are seeing what the shuttle sees and records, plus you just saved yourself £350 over my start up budget which brings external recording cost for you down to £560-£630. Shuttle V2 (£225-£250), mounting plate (£70-£90), SDI Cable (£15) and SSDs (i bought three 120GB Sandisk for £210), SSD dock (Voyager q from OWC is about £40-60). £560 compared to £1200 (without the SSDs) is a huge saving and leaves you more than enough to look into a professional V-mount power solution for your camera or a a new lens or a holiday if you have power already ;0) and probably still have change in your pocket.

As Adam stated, i wouldn't use spinners on a shoot, its been a long time since tape was my form of capture and i very much prefer Solid State mediums with no moving parts, be that an SD card or a SSD. I remember paying well over £100 for a 32 Gig class 10 Sandisk Extreme card to use on my Hacked GH1 for stability issues back in the day, the fact that i can pay that now for nearly two 120GB SSD cards is amazing. In reference to the SSDs, Blackmagic has a list of SSDs that are compatible, there is a list that can support Uncompressed as well as compressed capture and a list that can only support Compressed capture, as i said earlier, i only want a max of around an hour or so of recording per card as i prefer to break my shoot up into multiple reels in case of disaster but there are bigger SSDs on the list, a 240 and 480GB option if i remember. I went with Sandisk as it was on the list, is a recognised brand that i have used, had the right amount of space and was cost effective (£70 each)

Adams right, there is no difference between any of the recorders we have talked about in terms of recording quality as they all record to the same codecs, though the Ninja, Samurai and Nano can record a lower quality/higher compression version of Prores, if thats what you need or want then the Shuttle isn't going to be ideal but if you are going down the recorder route it is more than likely in the pursuit of superior image quality, might as well go for 422HQ or DNxHD anyway and have lossless Uncompressed for a beefier camera rental?. As Adam stated, you could opt for the gemini but its pointless solely for the Af100, if you are using cameras that could make use of it then maybe so but then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation if you did.

I was in the same boat, i wanted Prores HQ from a recorder via the SDI capture so that ruled out the Ninja (HDMI only) and the Shuttle (Uncompressed and then DNxHD) and i found myself saving up £1200 for the Samurai with the director paying for the SSDs (remember, £210), if i had bought one i would sing its praises too as it is a nice unit, professionally presented with all the bits you need but in reality the Samurai is a 800x480 monitor with a Shuttle built in and no HDMI and ends up costing £300 more than a equivalent setup with three SSDs, a monitor from a company that sells designs and sells monitors and a recorder that was designed to just be that, a recorder. All you want from these devices is a robust unit that can handle the travel and does its job, Adam hit the nail on the head, you dont need anything more on a recorder other than Record, Play, Stop and Skip. All i wanted was to verify the last take and to have the recorder start via the Af100.

For some the bug bears of the Shuttle are the internal 1 hour battery (though this is a god send once you use V-Mounts to power your rig and you have the budget for them now), no delete function (though a non issue for me with a couple extra SSDs that your budget now allows) and no onscreen overlays. The last one is the only thing i am waiting on and Blackmagic are working on that, there is a unused display button on the Shuttle that surely will be just for that purpose, with the cost savings i have had i can forgive them on this.

This is just my opinion but on a shoot recently it was just a flawless setup and the loop through gave me my DP4 and the director his own screen, no hassle.
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Forgive the terrible DIT area and mess, we was shooting two 12 hour days inside a staircase
 

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Hey have to go out to a football match in a second but wanted to quickly post thanking you for the lengthy and very helpful reply (not to mention the excellent pictures, the af100 looks like quite the beast!) You sure you don't work for hyperdeck black magic lol? You've pretty much convinced me for sure! And good to know i can just use my dp6 for both purposes. Only a few more questions... (as always sorry!) but was just wondering if the mounting plate, is that the rods underneaththe camera right or is that a shoulder mount? And is there a way to mount it to the actual camera, like the bottom or side for hand held shooting etc? (Own a blackbird too so just a little worried if it's practical for that). Also does the hyperdeck record 25fps etc? I live in the UK but will be moving to canada soon, so would ideally like all frame rates covered - though i heard it doesnt record variable frame rates like slow mo right? And this V mount power pack sounds interesting (as one hour battery isnt that much), are they expensive and easy enough to mount too? Only concern now is making the af look like an absolute tank! Thanks again though very encouraging to here too in price terms for sure!
 
The mounting plate is actually a cheese plate that bolts to the back of the Shuttle, it has holes all over it for mounting. I looked into mounting to the side in place of the palm grip that i never use, im sure with the right allen bolts i can put it there but after having it mounted to a rod adapter and slid it back with the V-Mounts it really becomes a stable on shoulder rig and fine on the tripod or Jib but i am looking to swap out my old camera plates and rod clamps so don't try and mimic this mess of a rig. Editman has a couple of nice shots over at his website here; http://editmansweden.com/2012/11/15/blackmagic-designs-hyperdeck-shuttle-v2/

You can see the amount of mounting holes you have.

V-Mounts are around £200 each and you need the plate too which can come in at about £160 but this powers your whole rig for hours, we had four on the set that day (Pelican case in the DIT pic) and i used two on the day but that was swapping out batteries that still had 60% charge left in them, just made sense to change over to a fresh battery after lunch but i could of done the whole day with just one and that was powering the Af100, SmallHD DP4 and the Shuttle. Of course you can always just power it via the mains which i do on controlled studio shoots.

All of the frame rates are covered the same as the other recorders, no VFR or 1080 50/60p (via the firmware or AF100A). You're limited to the output of the SDI which is either 1080 50/60i or 720p. 1080 24psf is supported which is essentially 48i but the fields are captured at the same point in time not like 50i. Barry Green is the best to ask about this.

I live in the UK, 10 miles out from London, if you need a hand on a shoot I'm willing to travel if you pay the petrol ;0)
 
The assumption that the Samurai only sold because the Shuttle wasn't up to speed yet is inaccurate and borne of zealotry.

The wimpy internal battery life on the Shuttle compared to the long battery life and ease of swapping batteries on the Samurai were among my deciding factors. One hour of use just doesn't cut it for me. If you have to add external powering to make a unit useful in the real world (my real world, at least) then those expenditures need to be factored in for a fair price comparison. A battery plate, external batteries, and battery charger can rack up a pretty substantial cost on their own. With a Samurai purchase, a carrying case, two batteries (8+ hours worth), dual battery charger, and a USB/Firewire-800 computer dock for the drives are all included.

I'm not saying that someone should necessarily choose one over the other. I'm just saying that anyone considering an exterior recorder needs to compare the entire package -- including powering, and drives -- its use, and total cost.

Equipment shouldn't be a religion, they're just tools, and the important thing is each user should choose the right tool for any given job.
 
John B. said:
The assumption that the Samurai only sold because the Shuttle wasn't up to speed yet is inaccurate and borne of zealotry.

The wimpy internal battery life on the Shuttle compared to the long battery life and ease of swapping batteries on the Samurai were among my deciding factors. One hour of use just doesn't cut it for me. If you have to add external powering to make a unit useful in the real world (my real world, at least) then those expenditures need to be factored in for a fair price comparison. A battery plate, external batteries, and battery charger can rack up a pretty substantial cost on their own. With a Samurai purchase, a carrying case, two batteries (8+ hours worth), dual battery charger, and a USB/Firewire-800 computer dock for the drives are all included.

I'm not saying that someone should necessarily choose one over the other. I'm just saying that anyone considering an exterior recorder needs to compare the entire package -- including powering, and drives -- its use, and total cost.

Equipment shouldn't be a religion, they're just tools, and the important thing is each user should choose the right tool for any given job.
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I'm not assuming that at all, the Samurai is a great piece of equipment, the Ronin for AV rack dual capture is pretty cool too. This thread started ages ago and back then i was all for the Samurai, the Shuttle even for me wasn't worth buying (no Prores) but now it competes just fine and this thread has been boosted to the top of the list because someone actually searched the site and asked for help, the market has changed and so has the options for external recording.

"Equipment shouldn't be a religion, they're just tools, and the important thing is each user should choose the right tool for any given job"

I agree with this and i am helping another user make an informed decision but in this case we are talking about functional pieces of equipment that capture the same exact codec but have different approaches to doing so and as such have variables that are worth talking about.

To be fair the Nano doesn't have a screen and didn't put people off of buying it over the Samurai and vice versa so i don't think it actually comes down to that, Price on the other hand is a factor and a £1200 Samurai with three SSDs is around £1500 in the UK (the AF is around £2500), the Shuttle with the DP4 from smallHD and three SSDs and a Dock is only £900, that leaves £600 for V-Locks and a plate which is more than enough to have a little change left over but now the user will have power for the whole system and other cameras such as an F3 or the BMCC. They also have a monitor that can just be a monitor for other cameras and have just one charger and battery solution for three devices, it lasts all day and gives useful counter balance for Shoulder shooting. If you consider what you said one more time;

- "Equipment shouldn't be a religion, they're just tools, and the important thing is each user should choose the right tool for any given job" -

This extends to cameras no? so would it be a good idea to have a set of tools that can work on, monitor and power anything up to 10 bit uncompressed? be that a HDMI sourced Nikon D800 or an S-Log streaming F3?. Yes the Samurai can indeed record from SDI cameras but you wouldn't want it as a Monitor? not doubting its useful but when you consider the extra you are paying even now would you want to use the Samurai as a monitor? would you want a better power source for the BMCC, F3, FS100? Would you want an EVF option?

I dont treat my equipment as a religion hence why i have my eye on the future, right now that makes the GH3 and the BMCC as potential purchases to go along side my AF100 and replace my GH2, with my current setup they just slip straight in to all day power and low compressed capture. That wouldn't be the case if i had the Samurai as i don't need the recording options on the BMCC and wouldn't use it as a monitor and it doesn't accept HDMI in without another device (more cost) which rules out its use with the D800, GH3, 5DMk3 (with new firmware), FS100 etc?

I mention this as i feel most shooters will have similar needs.

I fail to see how two Canon batteries and an extra charger is a benefit? i can still strip my camera down to just a DP4 when going AVCHD compressed, or a Camera with just the shuttle for 1 hour recording (i wouldn't set out on my daily shoot this way but if i needed to take the V-Locks off for a particular shot, say for balance on a Jib arm its not a problem) I have a very in line camera that is around Alexa in size, has power for all day and i gain the EVF loop option (which i took up), these are just benefits, it has nothing to do with Equipment religion or Brand loyalty. As mentioned before if something fails it doesn't knock out the other device and if a better shuttle comes out or a better capture device in my price range i can just sell the current shuttle and upgrade my overall package, same for the DP4 and the dock (thunderbolt anyone).

Benefits like this usually come at a cost but in this situation i have saved money, gained flexibility and improved my overall working rig for this camera and the next. A Samurai for me would just be a £1200 device that works on a handful of cameras i am likely to use in the near future and doesn't improve my on camera monitoring, power needs or wallet.
 
You have a nice rig.

Your attitude seems to be that your configuration is right and any other approach is wrong.

I disagree with the second part of that. This is something each person should decide for themself after examining all the pros and cons -- feature-wise, formfactor-wise, and cost-wise.
 
Not at all. I'm just weighing up the pros and cons and explaining why i went with my choice. As Adam said, most went with anything but the shuttle due to its recording functions, the Samurai (as i have stated more than once) is a great piece of kit, well presented with everything you need for recording and data transfer and was my intended purchase before the Shuttle had its update. In fact it wasn't me putting the other device down with comments like "weedy battery" or passing out the DVX cliche of "everything is just a tool don't make it a religion", i'm stating pros and cons, if you think i have missed something then mention something about the Samurai, Ninja, Nano etc don't start commenting on my attitude or being condescending with the whole DVX wisdom of the eternal tool set.

With the update it now becomes an alternative, i doubt most are even looking at it in the way i am, they see the Samurai as an all in one device and I'm sorry but it isn't. Most of us that are seeking external recording are already a little further along our path professionally or are stepping the game up a little and more than likely already have external power sources and monitors or are at least aware of them and looking into them. If said individual is also saving/putting aside some cash for the Samurai because they are not aware that the Shuttle now gives them prores and DNxHD recording they might be pleasantly surprised to know that there intended budget for external recording can be shrunk from £1500 to as little as £450 (if they have monitors and power) or on the other hand they might now be able to step into external monitoring and all device power, if that doesn't appeal to them then they have other choices available to them.

To each there own as i have already said.

You know what, DVX usually goes this way, you have to sift through the brand loyalists and the pretenders and second guess everything in order to put across what you may think is a good idea or to extract some real world experience or knowledge. Of course i think my approach was right (for me), thats why i went that way and to be fair i had more options than some of the Samurai owners here who didn't have the Shuttle as an option. That doesn't mean i think they are wrong but i am not going to nod my head and agree that whats being said is viable for me as i don't think it is.
 
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