AF100 external recorder - Ninja 2 or Samurai?
- Thread starter Kindredmachine
- Start date
That is odd? Is the firmware up to date? (Not that that should matter), I find it works fine even with 24psf being passed through to the DP4, it does require that stop button being pressed though and there is maybe a 5 second delay to it coming through.
Cables all ok? If so you might have a dud and should get it replaced under warranty, or insurance if you now "accidentally" drop it
That is odd? Is the firmware up to date? (Not that that should matter), I find it works fine even with 24psf being passed through to the DP4, it does require that stop button being pressed though and there is maybe a 5 second delay to it coming through.
Cables all ok? If so you might have a dud and should get it replaced under warranty, or insurance if you now "accidentally" drop it
Do you ever use anything but 24psf? Do you record interlaced with the shuttle?
If I switch 24psf off the pass-through works. But this is useless for me because with 24psf off the camera only sends out interlaced and I don't want to record interlaced. I know you are probably thinking the problem is that my monitors don't work with 24psf. But it used to work with the EX1 24psf just fine.
Hey XSV no worries, yeah I'm getting a pretty good set up, got a nice arri light, voitlander 25mm plus other lenses like the lumix 7-14, 14-140mm etc etc, (enough for one guy to carry about!) Just thought for my next purchase to be serious about independent films I want the best image quality out of the camera too, and 4:2:2 colour space sounds very important for colour grading etc, plus the only examples of af100 work ive seen on screen is the raid which used an external recorder and looked amazing (bar a few dark noisyish shots but thats just me looking out for it). I'll let you know when I get the recorder and everything, it's exciting!
To be honest no, I have only captured 24psf, will check out my setup with different fps selected. Thing is that in 1080 the AF can only output a 60i/50i or 24psf stream regardless of you asking it to output 24/25/30p. Only time progressive frames are sent out is at 720p. I understood that it was down to the recorder to understand the flags. This is only NLE talk anyway, your monitors should be able to see the shuttle pass through.
barrys the best when it comes to the SDI output but I'll have a play and see what I can figure out
dregenthal
Veteran
Not to hijack the thread but having shot my share of "best image quality" (and enough stuff that was hidious), I found my best image quality comes from framing, focus, and lighting, and sometimes the story, depending on what I'm shooting.
It's been a while but I'm just thinking back to the days when I thought that owning an expensive camera made me a "DP" and that more or better equipment was the "miracle" of great shooting. Not talking about anyone here, I'm just say'in . . .
I totally agree with this hence when the rail question came up I asked about lights and grip. I think owning a set of lights is more important, DP is many things, from a start up point it really is understanding what is needed over time to produce a beautiful image technically both via the camera and the lighting (be that reenforcing natural keys or all artificial light). Working with a good gaffer helps a lot here.
Eventually this technical side of the camera department becomes white noise, its what we have spent time perfecting and any b-roll/b-unit in Hollywood can do a fantastic job here.
What a DP is for me and what I am striving to get my head round is someone who understands why a camera is put here instead of over there. For example, in taxi driver the camera never looks Rob in the face unless he has a gun pointing at you, it's always off to the side, looking up or slightly down depending on his status in the scene. In the tree of life, when brad learns of the loss of his son, he feels shame at how their relationship as father and son had been and in reality he dwells on this shame by himself, as such the camera stays behind him looking down and wont look him in the face, never getting any further than a few feet away from him but it won't venture around to look at him cause as a character, at this moment in time he wouldn't want to share this feeling with anyone. His wife on the other hand we see more fully and see her tears, she is open to the camera and wants comfort, as such the camera is neutral, depth of field is higher, we see her world a little more fully, the soft light on her cheeks, its also a stroke of genius that Brad the bad father is at work and the good mother is at the family home I these scenes, priorities of the characters is hinted at here.
A simpler way to look at this is the use of a long lens to show observation of a scene and a wider lens to be in the scene. I'm sure like me you guys can tell when a longer focal length is being used compared to a short lens?
The Dark Knight Rises is fantastic for this, when cat woman is first in the film the camera stays level with her, not looking up, not looking down, when Bruce Wayne catches her snooping sround the camera is below looking slightly up at Bruce but still stays level with cat woman, status is being hinted at, when she revels herself and attacks a limping Bruce Wayne the camera shifts to looking down at Bruce as his status is taken away from him and drops lower as cat women scales the window and beomes a villian even when she disappears. When she gets into the limo outside with the politician she is about to kidnap, she puts on an innocent act if needing a lift home and the clean over the shoulder camera looks up at her target but down on her showing how the status of the relationship between her and the characters she meets changes, he thinks he's getting a sexy night and is portraying himself as the predator and for her disguise she is playing into his hands.
sorry I am thread jacking now!
Ed Kishel
Veteran
After reading this and other external recording threads for the AF, I wonder- is the general consensus that a 10bit 422 Recorder (samurai, BM shuttle):
1) will not have any visual/perceived color improvement (when compared to the same shot via the onboard AVCHD)
2) can show a marginal improvement when trying to key out a green/blue screen in post (because of the 422 color space)
3) can show a marginal improvement when trying to heavily grade a scene in post
4) will not show any visual/perceived resolution improvement, unless its a high motion scene like a running stream of water or blowing leaves on a tree (because of the higher bitrates)
I read so many conflicting reports of improvement vs no difference seen. Some people in other threads claim no difference- and to prove it they record a static medium shot of a shampoo bottle (duh?). Does anyone know of any examples of where the codecs are stressed, or where someone has graded to the point of artifacting when comparing AVCHD vs an external recording?
1) will not have any visual/perceived color improvement (when compared to the same shot via the onboard AVCHD)
2) can show a marginal improvement when trying to key out a green/blue screen in post (because of the 422 color space)
3) can show a marginal improvement when trying to heavily grade a scene in post
4) will not show any visual/perceived resolution improvement, unless its a high motion scene like a running stream of water or blowing leaves on a tree (because of the higher bitrates)
I read so many conflicting reports of improvement vs no difference seen. Some people in other threads claim no difference- and to prove it they record a static medium shot of a shampoo bottle (duh?). Does anyone know of any examples of where the codecs are stressed, or where someone has graded to the point of artifacting when comparing AVCHD vs an external recording?
1) yes you're right, how far you can push them is not night and day either
2) marginal when dealing with objects but motion between hands and hair is improved due to higher edge resolution at the chroma level (think I said that right)
3) it should be marginal because you try and compress as much of the DR/grey scale as you can into the shot with lights, reflectors, silk etc. I find the grading benefits from the cleaner noise pattern and huge reduction in macro blocking, there is definitely a smoothing of textures too, less chance of banding to with 422 and cleaner blacks as you can reduce coring and do your denoise pass more effectively in post.
4) yes and no, not a night and day difference but the All I codec benefits 24p and hand held in my opinion.
on the AF its not a huge leap in visual performance, never going to be really, its just a cleaner 8 bit signal with more colour resolution, handles motion better and will grade and denoise better. Everything at this level is going to be a marginal improvement, the AF100A should be a little better too with its 9 bit output ;0)
all of the above matters more the closer to the original file will be seen and how large it is going to be seen at. iPhone doesn't look a world apart in the right hands from a c300 on the web but we all know what that means in the real world
The FS700 is getting 4k from its output and I guess 10 bit 422 or is it still 8 bit? But to harness that significant leap you need a FS100+ budget on top.
- the noise in low light scenes, and resulating softness in AVCHD is very noticable when A/B'd with DNx/ProRez when displayed on a large screen - we did a test, and even the director's 7 year old son picked out the AVCHD instantly (and unfavorably in a way only a 7 year old can be) in a blind test on a 16" screen hit by a Christe2K projector
- it depends upon your tollerance for tearing edges, one man's "it's fine" is another man's "complete garbage" - are you delivering for youtube? prolly not a huge deal, delvering for HD broadcast or theatrical? Uhhhhh.. yea... ACVHD's pretty much garbage, even DNx/ProRez is suboptimal.. i go uncompressed for that stuff
- Alot of gradeing is keying really, using secondaries IS pulling keys, the diffrences are instantly appereant
- Noise, cars moveing through frame, steadycam, pogocam, noise, fast moveing handheld, danceing, noise, any time the camera or the subject moves quickly(ish) and/or there's noise, add low light and fast moveing camera and even my grannie could see the diffrence on a Dolby PR4200 or a 16' screen hit by a Christe2K projector before gradeing starts... it only gets worse from there.... but you might not see any diffrences watching a mightly compressed a clip on youtube, does not mean it's not there - just means the delivery medium masks it
My Acam rig with the BMD Hyperdeck on a WestSideAV baseplate / rear plate, everything (Camera/deck/EVF/7"mon) runs off one Vlok Switt all day long with more than 50% in reserve;
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Beautiful Bob, very compact, screen at the back for a following director is really cool!
Does it require two tripods?nice rig and summary, at the end of the day it's an improvement. I don't know if I would pay £1500 for that improvement via the samurai on an AF100 but don't mind the recording option only costing £400ish when integrated into a powered and monitor equipped rig.
definitely see the advantage the Samurai has when paired with a Red, I guess you are going in the other direction to us bob? Trying to find a compact compression solution over red code on jobs that don't need Raw?
Ed Kishel
Veteran
that's my thought as well- is it an improvement worth $1500 for a Samurai? The BM Hyperdeck however... probably, since properly outfitted it's only 1/3 the cost. If at the end of the day- if I have to pixel-peep to see the difference, it's not worth. The money should go towards a better light kit.
If only the Samurai could just do 1:1 punch in for focusing- then I could justify it.
If only the Samurai could just do 1:1 punch in for focusing- then I could justify it.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
-My Acam rig with the BMD Hyperdeck on a WestSideAV baseplate / rear plate, everything (Camera/deck/EVF/7"mon) runs off one Vlok Switt all day long with more than 50% in reserve;
more than 50% in reserve;
Oops- Sony A-cam? :grin:
bgundu
Veteran
This is the same setup for tripod. It balances very well. As long as you have a sliding plate or sliding dove plate. I've done away with shoulder mounts. This was the fastest setup from tripod to shoulder. I have a Velcro shoulder pad that quickly attaches.