EndCredits
Well-known member
Price point really shouldn't be such a dividing factor. They are both tools for the same job.
Af 105a announced in japan
- Thread starter tacotim
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Price point really shouldn't be such a dividing factor. They are both tools for the same job.
Of course it is a dividing factor. Thats like comparing a 550d to a 1d mk iv
Mike Harvey
Veteran
But those tools give you different results in part because of the price point. If I'm paying over $15,000 for one camera, and $3,500 for the next, I would expect the $15k camera to perform much better. How else would I justify paying that much more?
Steve Kahn
Well-known member
Are you guys even aware of the Black Magic Cinema Camera? 13 stops DR, 12 bit raw, 2.5k and very sharp and under $3k.
That effectively puts the 8bit C300 out to pasture as a cinema camera.
That effectively puts the 8bit C300 out to pasture as a cinema camera.
Lot of people don't need or want a cinema camera.
A Mazda Miata is prettier, uses a lot less gas, and costs a lot less than an F350 DRW diesel crew-cab, but if I bought the Miata to tow a stock trailer I'd be a damned fool.
To stretch the analogy, the AF100 would be a Toyota Hilux
A Mazda Miata is prettier, uses a lot less gas, and costs a lot less than an F350 DRW diesel crew-cab, but if I bought the Miata to tow a stock trailer I'd be a damned fool.
To stretch the analogy, the AF100 would be a Toyota Hilux
Dino
Veteran
Agreed, I was just noting that I had to change my lighting approach because I'd been shooting with the C300 so much lately. The AF100 does some things better than the C300, the GH2 does some things better than the AF100, so price isn't always a simple equation when it comes to quality, feature set. The BMC camera is not at all appealing ergonomically to me and I consider the C300 to be more of a broadcast camera than Cine camera, whereas Scarlet would be the opposite.
My perspective comes from being a DP for 30 years and owning many/most of these cameras. There have been times when our AF100's really impressed me image wise and other times not so much. I don't think the AF100A is going to move the needle much for Panasonic, given the competition. Reality is that DSLR's are still being used in huge amounts on all types of projects, despite some great, albeit more expensive true video camera options.
Everybody that cites price points is commenting from the perspective of an owner. However, most DP's I know choose the best camera for the specific project, not just what they happen to own. When renting, the price point of an AF100 vs. FS100 vs. FS700 vs. C300 vs. F3 is not a big deal in the totality of a video production. As a DP, I'm going to try to get my client to spend the extra $150-200 for the better camera. Same with lenses. Same with monitors. Same with lighting and grip and audio. Rental makes the differences between various gear purchase pricing much more attainable in the context of the day rate in a total production budget. The camera with the better sensitivity and latitude is going to save money and time, potentially.
Please tell me I read this wrong, that the af100a is US $10,000 and not even recording 10bit internally????
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/11/panasonic-ag-af105a-pro-camcorder-lets-you-output-10-bit-hd-video/
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/11/panasonic-ag-af105a-pro-camcorder-lets-you-output-10-bit-hd-video/
EndCredits
Well-known member
On paper sure, but take into account the lack of NDs the horrible ergonomics, the battery issue, the small sensor, all that and the C300 is looking really attractive. I like the BMC but its a hard sell to convince me to get one.
EndCredits
Well-known member
To often people say you cant compare x cam with y cam. You can, they are all cameras, compare to your hearts content. being able to afford it is rather academic and its what determines weather its worth it for you.
Compare a gopro with an F65 if you want. They both shoot pictures. and the BMC is a good example of features that many have said only exist in the higher priced products in a very affordable package. The AF100 has been a good camera for me, but these days it is left wanting. Many say that to expect a new model this soon at a similar price point is unreasonable. Its not unreasonable, unlikely maybe but that's more to do with a company not keeping up with the market.
There is no limit to our ability to compare cameras or anything. If a company chooses to price a camera higher than another is it exempt from comparison? Of course not. the Zakuto camera tests were a great example of cameras being compared and I found it really interesting and helpful. Primarily it pointed out that price is not the dividing factor that people claim it to be.
Compare a gopro with an F65 if you want. They both shoot pictures. and the BMC is a good example of features that many have said only exist in the higher priced products in a very affordable package. The AF100 has been a good camera for me, but these days it is left wanting. Many say that to expect a new model this soon at a similar price point is unreasonable. Its not unreasonable, unlikely maybe but that's more to do with a company not keeping up with the market.
There is no limit to our ability to compare cameras or anything. If a company chooses to price a camera higher than another is it exempt from comparison? Of course not. the Zakuto camera tests were a great example of cameras being compared and I found it really interesting and helpful. Primarily it pointed out that price is not the dividing factor that people claim it to be.
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And by then the girl you wanted to marry has grandchildren and your hair has all fallen out, lol!
Erik Naso
Veteran
Thats funny and so wrong.
...Ok, how about the Canon C100 and the AF100 ?
The difference will be somewhere in the $2,000 range between these two, and it looks like the C100 will have better high ISO performance, better 1080 resolution, and better dynamic range.
These discussions are bizarre.
What I see people demanding that they want Panasonic to produce, is basically an Arri Alexa -- and they want it for under $3,000.
Reality check.
Even though it's been out for (gosh!) almost two years, can anyone name another camera that offers the balance of features and image quality that the AF100 does for below $4,000? Included would be:
* Industry standard balanced XLR audio inputs
* Three built-in ND filters
* Accepts almost any lens
* Produces outstanding images in the hands of a pro
* HD-SDI output
* HDMI output
* Down-converted SD output
* PSF output
* Slo-mo
* Wide selection of variable frame rates
* Jammable Time Code
* Inexpensive media
* Less than $4,000
Someone name just ONE other camera that meets these criteria. Can you name one for TWICE the price?
Sure, I too hope the 100A is improved in many ways, but let's keep it real, folks.
What I see people demanding that they want Panasonic to produce, is basically an Arri Alexa -- and they want it for under $3,000.
Reality check.
Even though it's been out for (gosh!) almost two years, can anyone name another camera that offers the balance of features and image quality that the AF100 does for below $4,000? Included would be:
* Industry standard balanced XLR audio inputs
* Three built-in ND filters
* Accepts almost any lens
* Produces outstanding images in the hands of a pro
* HD-SDI output
* HDMI output
* Down-converted SD output
* PSF output
* Slo-mo
* Wide selection of variable frame rates
* Jammable Time Code
* Inexpensive media
* Less than $4,000
Someone name just ONE other camera that meets these criteria. Can you name one for TWICE the price?
Sure, I too hope the 100A is improved in many ways, but let's keep it real, folks.
Ed Kishel
Veteran
Let's first get our math in order- the C100 is on pre-order for $6500 and the af100 is $3600. So a more realistic estimation is that the C100 costs about $3000 more than the AF. AND the Canon has 2 years of R&D over the AF.
To me it seems a bit unfair to compare a camera that is 2 years older, and costs about 1/2 as much to one that hasnt even been released yet.
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Steve Kahn
Well-known member
Are you Barry Green Jr.?
No there is no camera out there with those specs other than the AF. But that doesn't change the point that there will be very soon. Short of that cinema shooters are embracing the BMCC or will be renting REDs like crazy (now that their price has dropped in half) until this crazy camera market stabilizes.
The other point is how out of touch Panasonic is if they really think the AF105a will be compelling to any cinema shooters, DPs or Hollywood. I live in this town and can tell you as a fact how little respect the AF gets and how directors and producers still like the 5Dmk2.
And sorry. I can't speak for you other guys. Large chip cameras were originally intended for us. I don't think a doc guy or eng shooter ever used one of those terrible 35mm screen adapters on a small chip camera back in the day to obtain shallow dof.
No there is no camera out there with those specs other than the AF. But that doesn't change the point that there will be very soon. Short of that cinema shooters are embracing the BMCC or will be renting REDs like crazy (now that their price has dropped in half) until this crazy camera market stabilizes.
The other point is how out of touch Panasonic is if they really think the AF105a will be compelling to any cinema shooters, DPs or Hollywood. I live in this town and can tell you as a fact how little respect the AF gets and how directors and producers still like the 5Dmk2.
And sorry. I can't speak for you other guys. Large chip cameras were originally intended for us. I don't think a doc guy or eng shooter ever used one of those terrible 35mm screen adapters on a small chip camera back in the day to obtain shallow dof.
Wesley Byram
Well-known member
First I've heard of it ;-)
Joking aside, the Black Magic has an amazing image at an incredible price...but it ain't perfect:
-30 frames-per-second, tops
-nasty, DSLR-esque rolling shutter.
-Those raw files are *BIG*. Not an insurmountable problem, and there's always ProRes/DNxHD as an alternative.
Can't speak for everybody, obviously, but the first two issues are complete dealbreakers for my own purposes. I agree that the Black Magic is a sign of things to come, though.
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Not sure who you've been talking to, but I have not heard anyone say they prefer the 5D over the AF. I'm currently shooting a feature on the AF and it's doing a fine job for me.
Zephyrnoid
Veteran
I usually cringe when some one uses the phrase... Let's keep it real.
Reality is very context sensitive. In a market awash in crazy money , the sky is the limit. In one that is on the brink of depression, the sky is down bye our knees.
In 1996 an SGI workstation running Discrete Flame cost around $30,000. The same capability in 2012 is a $3,000 laptop running FCP.
Real means nothing. The price-point is very much a function of hype. If enough people REFUSE to buy in, Manufacturers will be forced to capitulate.
Witness RED's recent and precipitous discounting.
If you want manufacturers to 'get real; stop upgrading so damn often. Run your gear into the ground and laugh all the way to the bank.
Then the features to price equation will fall into a buyer's market.
I simply draft a list of requirements and a price-point for them, assuming I am not being sponsored by a patron and I WAIT.
The Alexa in a small form-factor and 'real' price will happen, as long as we stop upgrading every time a new bell or whistle is announced.
Reality is very context sensitive. In a market awash in crazy money , the sky is the limit. In one that is on the brink of depression, the sky is down bye our knees.
In 1996 an SGI workstation running Discrete Flame cost around $30,000. The same capability in 2012 is a $3,000 laptop running FCP.
Real means nothing. The price-point is very much a function of hype. If enough people REFUSE to buy in, Manufacturers will be forced to capitulate.
Witness RED's recent and precipitous discounting.
If you want manufacturers to 'get real; stop upgrading so damn often. Run your gear into the ground and laugh all the way to the bank.
Then the features to price equation will fall into a buyer's market.
I simply draft a list of requirements and a price-point for them, assuming I am not being sponsored by a patron and I WAIT.
The Alexa in a small form-factor and 'real' price will happen, as long as we stop upgrading every time a new bell or whistle is announced.
The AF101A around € 4000, it is not not ridiculous at all... I just hope that they also revised a little the anti aliasing filter to restore the definition, and pass from 750 to 850 lines ...
in this way, on the current AF101,adjust the coring setting down to -7, and details to -5 and you 'll have not real problem with definition - My best profile is with Gamma BPRESS and matrix NORM1. iso 400 and 800.
But to propose already the 10bits 4.2.2 on SDI that is going to improve the definition. And regarding to the current market, AF101A will be, with a good profile, a real cine camera, 10 stops DR (not bad, and not the end of the world), Expand focus, AND 10b 4.2.2 but without raw.. and if the price around $4500 - by far, it's not ridiculous at all !!! Specialy if you compare with the BMCC... because with the BMCC you have to buy many accessories just to be able to take moving pictures, the raw workflow is a very good but very expensive way, where the AF101A is ready to be used, directly even if you add an Atomos samourai or a BM hyperdeck shuttle2... i think AF101A is, today, the best deal for independant filmmaker.
Gilbert (from Lyon-France).
in this way, on the current AF101,adjust the coring setting down to -7, and details to -5 and you 'll have not real problem with definition - My best profile is with Gamma BPRESS and matrix NORM1. iso 400 and 800.
But to propose already the 10bits 4.2.2 on SDI that is going to improve the definition. And regarding to the current market, AF101A will be, with a good profile, a real cine camera, 10 stops DR (not bad, and not the end of the world), Expand focus, AND 10b 4.2.2 but without raw.. and if the price around $4500 - by far, it's not ridiculous at all !!! Specialy if you compare with the BMCC... because with the BMCC you have to buy many accessories just to be able to take moving pictures, the raw workflow is a very good but very expensive way, where the AF101A is ready to be used, directly even if you add an Atomos samourai or a BM hyperdeck shuttle2... i think AF101A is, today, the best deal for independant filmmaker.
Gilbert (from Lyon-France).
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