Advice for recording 4 people using a Tascam DR-70d and an Audio Technica Pro 70

D

DanDU

Member
I recently purchased a Tascam DR-70d and would like to use it to record a conversation between 4 people in a small living room. I will be running two cameras on tripods to record the conversation without any assistance so a boomed microphone is out of the question.

I plan on using the Tascam-70d and 4 Audio Technica Pro 70 cardioid lavalier microphones. My reasons for choosing the AT Pro 70 are that they are:
  • inexpensive for a XLR lavalier from a reputable company
  • they are supposed to be good for recording in a noisy environment due to their cardioid pattern. I am hoping to avoid much "cross talk" or bleed (?) between the four microphones.
  • I have to assume that the talent have no microphone speaking skills whatsoever. (I realize that I have to instruct them to avoid turning their head while speaking)
  • I don't want microphone stands to be visible. A visible lav or microphone wire is not an issue.
Does my choice of equipment in a situation such as this make sense? Do you have recommendations? I am hoping to get by without using a mixer.

I've heard comparisons of the AT Pro 70 with other microphones such as the following and realize that they sound somewhat flat, lacking in warm bassy sounds produced by omnidirectional microphones but I am willing to forego that in favor of less crosstalk and background noise.


Here is a link to the blind lavalier test:


You can hear the AT Pro-70 at 03:21

Thanks for your help!
 
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4 people, 4 lavs, 4 record tracks. That's pretty straightforward and allows you complete control of the mix in post.

What I would advise against is your lav choice. Cardioid lavs can create many more problems than they solve. The biggest challenge is that there is a very tight axis of response, and the moment any one person turns his/her head, the voice fades off-axis. An omni lav is much more flexible in that respect.

Because of the placement of a lav, if properly-placed, it is close enough to the source that the environment shouldn't be as big of a deal. As for bleed or cross-talk, it will be what it will be depending on how close they are sitting to each other, but having them all recorded separately allows you to deal with this in post simpy by increasing the level of the active mic while reducing (or ducking) the level of the others. Thee will always be some bleed when you have four mics in proximity to each other.
 
Listen to Alex and Richard.

I'll second Richard's chuckle over the disconnect between instructing people to not move their heads, and them actually doing it. Unless these people are professional on-air talent, they aren't going to pay a bit of attention to your instructions. Not going to happen.

Said another way, it's not their job to make your recording sound good. It's your job.

My basic rule is to never use a lavalier mic that is not an omni. For anything. Under any circumstances. A cardioid lavalier is way more trouble than it's worth. You won't believe that, until you get into post and have to deal with voices going on and off axis, usually while they are talking. But it only takes one post session where you come out working for pennies an hour to get mediocre results to make a believer out of you.
 
+11 to the above. Avoid cardioid lavs!
The only time I would consider using a cardioid lav would be where feedback is an issue. Then, a headset would be preferred.
 
Bleed really shouldn't be an issue at all unless they're talking over each other a lot. If their individual sentences are clean, it's no thing just to cut out everything else in their individual tracks in post.

Be sure, of course, to get ample room tone.
 
Bleed may or may not be an issue depending on the acoustics of the room (not disclosed) and the distance between the subjects (unknown).
Bleed was a big problem for this production where the producer insisted on hiding lavs inside the guys' collars.

https://vimeo.com/70030114
 
If having them not move their heads is unrealistic, maybe you can have more success with instructing them not to talk over each other - that way you have fewer problems with bleed; seems like lav placement is going to be the biggest factor in getting the audio you want.
 
IME, unless they are experienced and disciplined professionals, expecting them to remember things like not turning their head, or not talking over each other is just completely unrealistic. They may listen to you and have good intentions about following the rules, but as soon as the cameras are rolling and they get into it, they will completely forget about the artificial rules. And expecing FOUR people to remember is just 4x more unrealistic.

Mr. Watson said it best: " it's not their job to make your recording sound good. It's your job"
 
Richard Crowley said:
Bleed may or may not be an issue depending on the acoustics of the room (not disclosed) and the distance between the subjects (unknown).
Bleed was a big problem for this production where the producer insisted on hiding lavs inside the guys' collars.

https://vimeo.com/70030114
Click to expand...

I don't mean to say there won't be bleed recorded, only that it's easily dealt with in post unless they talk over each other a lot. As long as you get a good clean recording of what someone says, it doesn't matter what else is recorded on his track when he isn't speaking -- you can just cut it out.
 
Thanks to everybody who has responded.

It looks like the AT Pro 70’s will be a bad choice in this situation.

Here are more details about my carpeted living room: dimensions are 15’ x 15’ with 7’ ceiling (plastered walls and ceiling) with 4 upholstered chairs, two windows with blinds, one upholstered couch, 6’x3’ bookcases in three corners, three side tables, three lamps, two 3’ archways with one opening into the carpeted foyer and the other into the kitchen.

The people will each sit from 2' to 3' apart.

@Richard C. - you must have been reading my mind about the WH20XLR. That is the microphone I was researching at the time you posted your comment. I like that they are dynamic microphones which have the reputation of being tough and also that headset microphones seem ideal for use with people inexperienced with handling a microphone. I’ve been researching them in lieu of Countryman B3’s which I can’t afford. Unfortunately there are not many reviews of the WH20XLR online but here are a few:


The following sounds raspy:


Below see 03.:51(which I think is straight out of the microphone) and 08:48 where it is (equalized and compressed I think):


After hearing the videos above my concerns are:

* room noise is minimized to such an extent that it sounds a little unnatural

* the signal put out by the WH20XLR sounds like it needs a great deal of gain. Can the DR-70d handle it since it is just a low end recorder?

* would these be comfortable after two hours of wear

* they are bulky.

The WH20xlr might make excellent podcasting microphones though. I will pick up a pair if I can find a cheap set on eBay.

A microphone I am also looking at is the Audio Technica AT803. What I like about them:

⁃ can be powered by battery which means I don’t have to use phantom power on the DR-70d (which has poor battery life)
⁃ 6’ sturdy xlr cord, not the skinny cord found on the cheap MXL lav set sold on B&H
⁃ omnidirectional
⁃ they don’t seem to be a hot item on eBay and can be picked up for reasonable prices there.

What do you think of the AT803? Any drawbacks?

Thanks,

Dan
 
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I am as far from an expert as it gets, and you're getting lots of expert advice from others here. Having just done a similar lav search in a similar budget, though, I wound up with a Naiant XLR omni lav. Recorded some sound clips which you can search for under my nick (caveats: just one vocal type, inexpertly recorded, fed into a noisy DR-40). Build quality is quite good, and he can customize cable length if you ask him.

If I'd had $140-150, I'd have gotten the OST lav, on the recommendation of many folks here.
 
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