Adobe moves to Creative Cloud, Cancels Creative Suite

[Barry_Green]

Nobody's saying a subscription model is a bad idea.

But when you have an established base, to then throw that out and force everyone into something they're not comfortable with, is rarely a winning strategy. It didn't turn out all that well for NetFlix, and it didn't make Final Cut Pro any new friends either. I have a hard time understanding how Adobe could watch both of those boondoggles and then think "hey, let's do the exact same thing as Netflix and Apple did!"

And to compare it to shoes, there's a bit of a difference here -- people have invested months or years in learning their software. They have projects that are archived that have been done in this software. I am not saying those are not reasons to migrate away; I'm just saying that lots of folks have a lot more invested in this than they would have in a pair of shoes, so it's well understandable why people get upset when the company they've been doing business with for years and years suddenly and unexpectedly stands the whole relationship on its head.

 

[GioCanales]

I totally agree with you Barry.

 

[paulears]

Nobody? I hate the idea of a subscription service. I hate it so much I'll change editors. I invest in equipment and software when it makes financial sense to do so - so buying new kit at certain times of the year is tax friendly - and I can delay or bring forward purchases to maximise my cash-flow. The idea of a regular outgoing for using an editor removes my choice, and I object strongly to being forced into a financial commitment that seems to never stop. I have plenty of software I have purchased that is now written off, in accounts terms, yet I still use it. Maybe to many people a low regular subscription seems better than a very large one-off payment, but not to me! I don't lease my vehicles, and I do not (luckily) have any loans for equipment. I just think removing choice is the fatal flaw. Having a buy or subscribe option would be fine, but renting software seems just a crazy idea for people who run their finances like me!

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

...while some pros might rationalize adobe's new strategy as somehow worthwhile, 99% of the worlds users are busy looking for alternatives. As a long time PS user , I never had the interest to investigate alternatives...esp. freeware. PS did everything I needed. But last night, just out of curiosity I downloaded gimp. HAhaha...the jokes going to be on Adobe ! Certainly lightworks is playing the same joke, although I haven't tried it yet. If apple were smart, they'd be cutting their fcpx prices....and sony vegas as well. Then we'd be hearing adobes retraction in about a week !

If Apple were smart - they would redesign FCP X to work more like FCP 7…All I want is the same layout - "if you like the layout, you can keep your layout"….
I do use FCP X for some projects and it can be much faster. But it is hard as hell to keep stuff where you want it.

 

[Samuel H]

So, you all say it's the fact that you HAVE TO RENT and the LACK OF CHOICES that you are not liking...
I'm pretty sure there would be not such outrage if CC was $5/month, and that was the only option --> I think it's really all about $$$
If those $$$ hurt you so much, think of this like a price increase. If CS7 production premium was a $1000 upgrade, would you buy it? My guess is that it would depend on what new features it has, how much faster it is, etc, but I don't see anybody talking about this (probably because we don't know yet, I'll give you that).

 

[Liam Hall]

And to compare it to shoes, there's a bit of a difference here -- people have invested months or years in learning their software.

Barry, there are people here that still use CS4 complaining about the creative cloud. They can still use CS4 or CS5 or CS6 no one is taking it away.

I've been on the creative cloud since it started. I see it as a positive move. It's great to be able to access all of the software and have the upgrades quickly and easily installed. The additional services look promising too, which is a bonus. OK, so I don't have a little stack of DVDs that are out of date and need patches downloaded from Adobe to make them work... It's not the end of the world...

 

[adkimery]

Nobody's saying a subscription model is a bad idea.

But when you have an established base, to then throw that out and force everyone into something they're not comfortable with, is rarely a winning strategy. It didn't turn out all that well for NetFlix, and it didn't make Final Cut Pro any new friends either. I have a hard time understanding how Adobe could watch both of those boondoggles and then think "hey, let's do the exact same thing as Netflix and Apple did!"

Considering that Netflix didn't reverse its price hike and Apple seems to be selling a fair number of FCPX installs maybe what Adobe learned is that you just have to weather the initial crap storm? The machiavellian part of me wonders if Qwikster was just a red herring to allow Netflix to separate it's most popular offering at the time (unlimited streaming + 1 DVD a month). Make two bad moves at the same time then reverse course on the one you never planned on following though with to give the appearance of making a concession in the face of customer outrage. I mean Qwikster, what the hell kinda stupid name is that?

With that being said, I do agree that the timing of going all in on CC seems rather poor and has cost Adobe a lot of good will it has built up since Apple dropped the X bomb.


-Andrew

 

[Barry_Green]

Nobody? I hate the idea of a subscription service. I hate it so much I'll change editors. I invest in equipment and software when it makes financial sense to do so - so buying new kit at certain times of the year is tax friendly - and I can delay or bring forward purchases to maximise my cash-flow. The idea of a regular outgoing for using an editor removes my choice, and I object strongly to being forced into a financial commitment that seems to never stop. I have plenty of software I have purchased that is now written off, in accounts terms, yet I still use it. Maybe to many people a low regular subscription seems better than a very large one-off payment, but not to me! I don't lease my vehicles, and I do not (luckily) have any loans for equipment. I just think removing choice is the fatal flaw. Having a buy or subscribe option would be fine, but renting software seems just a crazy idea for people who run their finances like me!

Totally agree. I meant that I can't think of why anyone would object to offering a subscription as AN OPTION. The offensive part here is when they removed the ability for a buyout and replaced it with solely a subscription, and I disagree with the subscription model for exactly the reasons you stated.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry, there are people here that still use CS4 complaining about the creative cloud. They can still use CS4 or CS5 or CS6 no one is taking it away.

I well understand that. I am on CS5, and nobody is taking it away. But your same argument did little to mollify the hordes of FCP7 users when they found out that FCP7 was dead and the only path forward would be FCPX. And this looks, smells, feels, tastes, and acts exactly the same as that.

I've been on the creative cloud since it started. I see it as a positive move. It's great to be able to access all of the software and have the upgrades quickly and easily installed. The additional services look promising too, which is a bonus. OK, so I don't have a little stack of DVDs that are out of date and need patches downloaded from Adobe to make them work... It's not the end of the world...

And, as an OPTION, that's fine. And for some people, it'll be even better. But apparently, to judge by the responses I'm seeing, it doesn't suit everyone and lots of people seem to be a little perturbed by it.

 

[Liam Hall]

I well understand that. I am on CS5, and nobody is taking it away. But your same argument did little to mollify the hordes of FCP7 users when they found out that FCP7 was dead and the only path forward would be FCPX. And this looks, smells, feels, tastes, and acts exactly the same as that.

Except with FCPX, Apple killed the NLE that everyone was using and replaced it with something that wasn't ready for the market. Adobe have improved the software but changed the delivery and payment structure. When people see how the new software has improved there will be a change in mentality from the naysayers.

And, as an OPTION, that's fine. And for some people, it'll be even better. But apparently, to judge by the responses I'm seeing, it doesn't suit everyone and lots of people seem to be a little perturbed by it.

Responses from who? Professionals? Hobbyists? Students? Strikes me there are different opinions from different camps.

 

[adkimery]

I well understand that. I am on CS5, and nobody is taking it away. But your same argument did little to mollify the hordes of FCP7 users when they found out that FCP7 was dead and the only path forward would be FCPX. And this looks, smells, feels, tastes, and acts exactly the same as that.

How can it be exactly the same when it's so different? CS6 is still readily available on Adobe.com and will receive bug/security fixes but no more features. FCP7 was just killed out right. All the Creative Cloud apps are the exact same AE, PS, Pr, etc., apps that people know how to use. FCPX is a whole other beast from FCP7.

Sure, the volume of outrage right now sounds similar but I think it will die down rather quickly compared to FCPX. Which I admit isn't saying much as in some places the FCPX outrage is still going...

 

[Wesley Byram]

To those that are saying things to the effect of "Well, if you don't like the new payment model, your copy of CS6 (or 5, or whatever) still works. Just use that." A similar argument was made with the FCP7 to FCPX switch. You are, of course, correct, but that argument is missing the bigger picture. Suppose that in a few years, a similar situation occurs. Lets say that you've bought into Creative Cloud and you're using, for example, CS9 (or whatever it may be called) and are perfectly happy with it. Then, Adobe rolls out CS-X, and it's totally unworkable for you.

"Fine, I'll just stick to CS9" you may think, and there's the rub. Maybe Adobe will be reasonable, and let you continue working with CS9 for a while. Then again, they may have their own business reasons for pushing everyone onto CS-X, and shut down the activation servers for CS9. Or, maybe the activation servers crash, or are hacked, etc. Your copy of CS9 no longer "works fine." The point is, once you're locked in, you're not in control of the software anymore. That's the real cause for concern. It has nothing to do with money. They could be charging $0.01 US per month but that doesn't change the fact that someone else has the keys to a critical component of your workflow.

 

[f64manray]

I don't think it's being a cry baby and wanting free stuff by saying "Hey I want to pay to pay you $1,900 for some software, and if you upgrade it later, I'll pay more at that time." I'm willing to pay, but not in perpetuity forever. Painters and illustrators can create anytime they like and only buy their materials. I feel the same way about my photography. I shouldn't have to be chained to a monthly subscription in order to create. Should I pay? Of course, but in the same way I pay for my camera. Canon as of yet hasn't started a leasing program and stopped selling cameras effectively saying I can shoot a 5DIII for $50 a month, and if I stop paying, they will deactivate my camera via GPS. How many monthly subscriptions can one person have? I think the whole concept is insane and equal to extortion. I know I have monthly bills for some services, but this just doesn't seem the same to me. Having this tied to my creative process is like charging me a monthly fee to breathe. I want to pay and be done with it.

For your convenience I've included Adobe's phone number if you feel the same way: 1-800-585-0774. Let them know how you you feel, and that you will be looking for alternatives in the future. CS6 will last me a good long time. The last version of PS Elements lasted me over 10 years without upgrade.

 

[Razz16mm]

Keep in mind that you never truly own any piece of software. You are only granted a license to use it under whatever conditions the licensing agreement covers.

Adobe is also offering one year prepaid licenses through retail outlets for the same cost as the annual monthly subsription.

They will continue to sell and support CS6 as a perpetual license, but won't be adding new features to it. They so support legacy product licensing under creative cloud too.

 

[keylight]

So, when you buy a new pair of shoes, does the shoe shop offer you various ways to pay?

Yes. Cash or credit (which I can pay off all at once or over time). Not sure I really understand what your point is.

Does Adobe prevent you from using other software?

No. Again, your point? Well wait. Yes. I mean, work done using Adobe's software can't always be opened in competitor's software, so I'd need to save it to non-proprietary formats first. If I'm on a subscription and cancel it, losing access to Adobe's software, this becomes problematic. Further, Adobe has a monopoly in most areas they play in, with video post production being the exception not the rule. So I'm going to answer with Yes and No. But still, your point?

I think we need some perspective here. I spend more insuring my pets than I do with Adobe.

Yeah, that may be your problem. Pet insurance is just silly.

Yet, I can use every piece of software they produce. And that software will be continually improved.

You're assuming they'll still have an incentive to improve. Subscriptions will see revenue soar due to high R&D spending to get people to move to subscriptions for new features no longer available through upgrades ($743,000,000 for R&D last year). But eventually revenue will level out an they'll increase revenue by cutting R&D. Selling upgrades every year or two is a huge incentive to keep innovating (need to get people buy those upgrades) but selling subscriptions is a disincentive. Maintain and support becomes the driving force.

Not so long ago I spent way more than I do on my mortgage just to own one NLE and had to pay a small ransom to buy the updates.

Yes, and maybe at some point you'll need to take out a second mortgage

The current annual subscription is $600. That's already higher than the cost of upgrading ($375 for PP CS5.5 to CS6, or $575 for MC). And if you extend that to the two year upgrade cycle it's $1200 vs. the same prices.

But who knows about future pricing. Here's what subscriptions originally cost back in 2011.



Will Adobe ever again try to charge $199/Month for Master Collection? I seriously doubt it. But $99/month? Sure. Why not? That's how monopolies work.

 

[adkimery]

To those that are saying things to the effect of "Well, if you don't like the new payment model, your copy of CS6 (or 5, or whatever) still works. Just use that." A similar argument was made with the FCP7 to FCPX switch. You are, of course, correct, but that argument is missing the bigger picture. Suppose that in a few years, a similar situation occurs. Lets say that you've bought into Creative Cloud and you're using, for example, CS9 (or whatever it may be called) and are perfectly happy with it. Then, Adobe rolls out CS-X, and it's totally unworkable for you.

"Fine, I'll just stick to CS9" you may think, and there's the rub. Maybe Adobe will be reasonable, and let you continue working with CS9 for a while. Then again, they may have their own business reasons for pushing everyone onto CS-X, and shut down the activation servers for CS9. Or, maybe the activation servers crash, or are hacked, etc. Your copy of CS9 no longer "works fine." The point is, once you're locked in, you're not in control of the software anymore. That's the real cause for concern. It has nothing to do with money. They could be charging $0.01 US per month but that doesn't change the fact that someone else has the keys to a critical component of your workflow.

Adobe has stated that 5 versions back of CC apps will be available for download at any one and that all CC apps will basically have a "save as previous version" function that will included CS6 (the last version w/a perpetual license). So by the time CSX comes out (to keep with the example) CS9, CS8, and CS7 will still be available for download to CC subscribers and everyone will have the ability to save their projects in CS6 compatible formats. Obviously features that new apps have won't transfer back to CS6.


-Andrew

 

[Wesley Byram]

Adobe has stated that 5 versions back of CC apps will be available for download at any one and that all CC apps will basically have a "save as previous version" function that will included CS6 (the last version w/a perpetual license). So by the time CSX comes out (to keep with the example) CS9, CS8, and CS7 will still be available for download to CC subscribers and everyone will have the ability to save their projects in CS6 compatible formats. Obviously features that new apps have won't transfer back to CS6.


-Andrew

Well, that's not quite as bad then, so maybe I didn't use the best example. But still, you're ultimately at their mercy if Adobe changes their mind in the future and decides to alter the deal. ("Pray I don't alter it any further.") The point is, they have the keys and you don't.

 

[hscully]

I'm not into the subscription and they don't care, and don't want my money to keep the deal we had, and don't give a crap about my investment in PP CS6. I don't want all that other stuff. I'm not going to use it, just basically PP, AE, AU, ME but I understand the package structure, never complained. I also don't ever begrudge them what they want for an upgrade. They can charge whatever they want, and I like the stuff. I'll pay it. I've been working at learning them for 2 years, upgraded my video card to play nice with Mercury. It's really not the money. Hell I've been paying $25 a month, half the annual cost of the subscription for lynda.com and have spent literally weeks on there with the "Essential Series..." and the "Short film... stuff. LOVED IT! I thought I was developing knowledge about the tool that I would be able to grow with and enjoy.

I'm not going to pay for a subscription because it is a crappy way to do this stuff. I just feel bad for the first guy who HAS to drop it because of ... well whatever and then doesn't have something to work on their CS 9 project . "No problem, come on back when you figure out where to get the dough." Screw that. It's just lousy. I'm not going to be put in that position by a company I've already laid out all this cash to. I don't trust them.

I don't like being treated like that I'm pissed and sorry that they don't want me along. You can call me a cry baby or whatever you want but this is BS and I'm not going for it.

 

[Razz16mm]

Apple is a whole different can of worms. They have a long history of abandoning and breaking both legacy software and hardware with OS upgrades and new apps.
Adobe provides much better legacy support than Apple ever has.

I would say so far that Adobe's cloud model is a rousing success since they have already sold more than 5 times the number of CC memberships than annual CS suite sales at their best.

 

[adkimery]

Well, that's not quite as bad then, so maybe I didn't use the best example. But still, you're ultimately at their mercy if Adobe changes their mind in the future and decides to alter the deal. ("Pray I don't alter it any further.") The point it, they have the keys and you don't.

Agree that you do have to assume that Adobe isn't going to screw you. Of course if Adobe wants to stay in businesses they can't screw everyone over 'cause eventually people will find alternatives and leave so there is some equilibrium that's at work here.

I think Adobe really has put some thought into making the CC as painless as possible but switching from perpetual license to subscription is painful period.