Adivce on workflow, editing software, special effects?

G

Gillvane

Veteran
Howdy,

I used to shoot 16mm back in the day. I've shot sync sound, gone to answer print, edited on flat bed tables, etc., etc., very old school.

I'd like to get back into making some short films and I'm looking at some cameras.

I'm ok with the lighting, shooting, directing aspects, but I"M pretty shaky when it comes to digital editing and so forth.

I want to get as close to the "film look" as I can, something like results I used to get on 16mm.

What's the best camera for me? I've got the budget for a DVX100b, probably not the HVX200. Anything else I should look at or consider?

What about editing software? I have a friend that uses Pinnacle 12 and he's willing to help me edit. I"m not going to transfer from video to film, I just want to release on DVD's and the web, youtube and so forth.

I want some special effects. I"ve seen some cool stuff from After Effects. Can I shoot 24p and edit on Pinnacle 12 to get started? Can I use After Effects on Pinnacle 12?

Do I need magic bullet? What software will magic bullet work with?

Oh, I"ll be doing green screen as well. And, I'm a bit confused on the HD thing. Do I need it, is SD ok, can I edit in HD on most programs?

Vielen Dank
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Hello,
The DVX100b is probably going to give you the "closest to film" look you will get on any camera anywhere near this price point.
After Effects is a very popular effects program and many of the members here use it.
Magic Bullet for After Effects and Final Cut Pro is VERY popular also.
Many members here have posted their results with them.
I am not sure about Pinnacle 12 as I have not used it. I'm sure someone here will answer.

Green screening can be done very easily in SD with the above mentioned programs.

HD is not regarded as essential for the purposes you listed, and it will kill you in higher computer and storage costs.
 
Pinnacle won't let you remove pulldown, so you won't be able to edit as 24p.

All of the major pro-level NLEs -- Avid (NOT Liquid), Vegas, FCP, Premiere, and Edius -- will allow you to work seamlessly in a 24p environment; all support the DVX and they all, one way or the other, support the HVX200. Which one you use will be a matter of preference.

As for which camera, that, too, will be a matter of preference. There's a lot to consider.

In short, there's no simple answer, and no one can decide for you what's best for you -- you need to figure out what you're going to be doing and what format/editing environment matches best for your needs and your preferences.
 
David Jimerson said:
Pinnacle won't let you remove pulldown, so you won't be able to edit as 24p.

All of the major pro-level NLEs -- Avid (NOT Liquid), Vegas, FCP, Premiere, and Edius -- will allow you to work seamlessly in a 24p environment; all support the DVX and they all, one way or the other, support the HVX200. Which one you use will be a matter of preference.

As for which camera, that, too, will be a matter of preference. There's a lot to consider.

In short, there's no simple answer, and no one can decide for you what's best for you -- you need to figure out what you're going to be doing and what format/editing environment matches best for your needs and your preferences.
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As for the camera, unless anyone says differently I'll go with what DPStewart said. That's my price range for the camera, and if that's the closest I can get to the film look in that price range, I"m sold.

On the editing part, I'm still unclear.

OK, I can't edit on something like Pinnacle in 24p. So, if for example i had the DVX100b, does that mean I need to shoot in 30i if I"m going to edit in Pinnacle, which would sort of defeat going for the film look? (I do know that 24 fps is only part of the film look).

Or, I just need to get a more professional editing package?

IN any case, thanks for the replies. I will start by looking at the NLEs you listed and see which one of those might be a good fit for me. I assume they all work with after effects and magic bullet? One other piece of the puzzle, everything has to be Windows. No macs for me, I don't like 'em.
 
You should get better editing software. You will not be able to take advantage of all of the benefits of 24p until you do.

That said, you can still shoot 24p standard (not 24pA) and edit with Pinnacle; it will have the 24p look. (You can shoot 24pA, too, but you won't get best results that way.) But with no native 24p editing, you'll find that any motion you add (transitions, PIP, etc.) and text will have a distinct "video" look to it. You may also find that fades and dissolves might look a little wonky.

Your NLE will be, as I said, a matter of preference. From a technical perspective, no NLE supports the DVX better than Vegas, but that doesn't mean you'll prefer it to, say, Premiere. Premiere, of course, has the advantage of tight integration with After Effects, and no other NLE comes close in that regard.

So, I'd do some testing. Download the demos and see what you prefer. Remember, NLEs have a high degree of customizability, so what you see when you first open them up isn't generally what you're stuck with in terms of interface, layout, etc.. You'll have 30 days to play with them, so really get under the hood.
 
I used to work with 16mm film, too. I still have a Bell & Howell "Filmo" 70DR that I may use again sometime in the future. I chose the Panasonic DVX100B because of its remarkable ability to simulate that 16mm film look. I played around with the scene file settings until I found a group of settings that, I think, pretty much matches the results I used to get with film. These days, I shoot everything in 24p Progressive, though I have used 24pA with good results. As for my NLE, I have used Adobe Premiere Elements 1.0 and Premiere Elements 3.0. Neither of these can edit on a 23.97 timeline, but since I export to the web and to DVD, this does not matter to me. Shooting 24p and editing on a 29.97 timeline works well for me and gives me satisfactory, "film-like" results.

I have a couple of examples on YouTube, if you want to check them out:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Paladin0954
 
Paladin said:
I used to work with 16mm film, too. I still have a Bell & Howell "Filmo" 70DR that I may use again sometime in the future. I chose the Panasonic DVX100B because of its remarkable ability to simulate that 16mm film look. I played around with the scene file settings until I found a group of settings that, I think, pretty much matches the results I used to get with film. These days, I shoot everything in 24p Progressive, though I have used 24pA with good results. As for my NLE, I have used Adobe Premiere Elements 1.0 and Premiere Elements 3.0. Neither of these can edit on a 23.97 timeline, but since I export to the web and to DVD, this does not matter to me. Shooting 24p and editing on a 29.97 timeline works well for me and gives me satisfactory, "film-like" results.

I have a couple of examples on YouTube, if you want to check them out:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Paladin0954
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Thank you. That look works for me. If I can get that with the dvx100b even if I don't edit in 24p, I'm happy.
 
DVX 100-b, easily. Or, a few slightly used 100a's in good condition, if you already have a lighting package and sticks. For 16:9, I'd take take Squeeze Mode over an actual anamorphic adapter, so you'd be saving an extra grand or so on lenses. You'll have to get used to shooting "squishy," but it's easier on the wallet.

Premiere would be the best compromise for a NLE, and you could always uprez the footage to HD via plugin later, if necessary.
 
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Gillvane,
If you like the look I am getting with my DVX100B, I use the following settings in Scene File 5. They should give you a decent starting point for experimenting to find the settings you like best.

DETAIL LEVEL....... -4
V DETAIL LEVEL..... 0
DETAIL CORING .... 0
CHROMA LEVEL.... -3
CHROMA PHASE.... 0
COLOR TEMP......... 0
MASTER PED......... -6
A. IRIS LEVEL....... -3
GAMMA.................. CINELIKE
KNEE..................... AUTO (This is automatically disabled in CINELIKE GAMMA)
MATRIX................. CINELIKE
SKIN TONE DTL..... OFF
V DETAIL FREQ...... THIN (for 16:9 squeeze mode)
PROGRESSIVE....... 24P

Use your zebras for exposure. I like the 80% zebra but try both the 80% and the 100% to see which one you prefer. 80% is best for skin tones.

Good luck!
 
Though you'll retain the look in the footage without editing in a 24p environment, I strongly suggest you don't settle for that. As I said, you won't be taking full advantage of 24p that way.

One of the most practical and immediate concerns is this -- if you don't edit in 24p, you won't be able to make a 24p DVD. This matters more and more today, because more and more people are watching on digital sets, progressive displays which will show interlace artifacts when watching interlaced material. This will include 29.97 DVDs you'll make after editing as 29.97.

A 24p DVD won't do that -- that's how Hollywood DVDs are put on disc.

Just one concern, and a big one at that. It really does matter.
 
While I am by no means an expert, I can speak concerning my own experiences. I shoot 24p. I edit on Adobe Elements 3.0 with a 29.97 timeline. I export to DVD. I play the DVD on a progressive scan DVD player. I watch the DVD on a widescreen, digital, progressive scan TV. I see no interlace artifacts. Ever. And believe me, I look for them.

One of the reasons I use the NLE that I use is economics. After buying my new DVX100B, lights, a tripod and some other gear, I simply do not have the ability to pay $800 to $1000 for an NLE just to be able to edit in 23.97. Premiere Elements (in various versions) is available for less than $100 and does not require a high end computer to run. For me, getting the film made is the important thing. Just my two cents.
 
Well, the choice is ultimately up to you, of course, but I'm just saying . . . you're not taking full advantage of 24p by doing that. If you can't afford more, then you can't afford more. But I wasn't referring to you specifically; I was making a general comment to everyone. Yes, you can get by with an NLE which can't edit 24p natively, but I strongly suggest you move up at the earliest opportunity. (Not to mention the many, many more editing tools you get by doing so.)

If you're not seeing interlace artifacts, then the TV or player is deinterlacing. If that's so, then you're losing vertical resolution.
 
David Jimerson said:
Though you'll retain the look in the footage without editing in a 24p environment, I strongly suggest you don't settle for that. As I said, you won't be taking full advantage of 24p that way.

One of the most practical and immediate concerns is this -- if you don't edit in 24p, you won't be able to make a 24p DVD. This matters more and more today, because more and more people are watching on digital sets, progressive displays which will show interlace artifacts when watching interlaced material. This will include 29.97 DVDs you'll make after editing as 29.97.

A 24p DVD won't do that -- that's how Hollywood DVDs are put on disc.

Just one concern, and a big one at that. It really does matter.
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Thanks for the tips. I will get started with a low end NLE system, and do some short projects, then save up for the expensive NLE solution.

I'll probably go with Adobe Premiere at some point. I know it can do the job, and it grooves with After Effects. I want to do a lot of special effects, so that's important. Not a lot of effects in each piece, but most of the subject matter will require some effect at some point in the production.
 
Like I said -- download the demos and really get under the surface of them. For the most part, the only thing you won't be able to do with the demos is MPEG (because it's not licensed for demo use).
 
Maybe, but if I'm losing vertical resolution, I can't tell it. It looks as good as the professionally made DVDs to me.
 
pronghornproductions said:
pinnacle Studio 12.1 has a deinterlace tool, wouldn't that work in place of editing on a 23.97 timeline to minimize artifacts?
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No, not at all the same thing. You don't want to deinterlace 24p footage (or any other progressive footage). You'll just make a mess and torpedo vertical resolution.
 
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