Additional Atomos Shogun Update

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evolvmedia

Member
FYI, the Atomos Shogun will NOT output an HD signal while it is capturing 4K. I assume it will not output any HD signal while the 4K is engaged period. This to me seems like a huge design flaw. If shooting on the A7s in 4K you are limited to only viewing your shots on the Shogun, then you can not send an HD signal to another reference monitor (unless its a 12G 4K). I see this being problematic when using multiple cameras and in an environment where you need to send video to additional eyes i.e. a director or producer. Also I could have sworn that Atomos stated the Shogun would handle timecode? I assumed this would be done through the Lemo connector and the yet to be reveiled LEMO to XLR cable. Recent videos online show the (clunky) cable is only XLR audio I/O. I've had my Shogun on preorder since the end of June and I assume mine will ship this week. My gut is telling me to cancel the order, but I might as well get it and test it before I over react. Cheers!

Below is my exchange from Atomos tech support:

New Update:


Hi Damen
The Shogun does not down convert the output to 1080p, it passes through to the outputs exactly what is sent through the input, so 4K in = 4k out
Regards



Original:


Hi Atomos,


I heard something in an interview from your President that might be a little troubling assuming I understand it properly.
Can the Shogun while receiving a 4K signal via HDMI (from the A7s) or HDSDI from a camera like the A7s simultaneously output HD via HDSDI or HDMI? Obviously uses would be sending the output to video village or another monitor.


Thank you.
 
evolvmedia said:
My gut is telling me to cancel the order, but I might as well get it and test it before I over react.
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Actually, ignoring your gut, it's conscience that requires you to cancel your order if your actual plan is to return it because of a mere disagreement you have with a feature (as opposed to a defect).
 
That would be a nightmare for me, I use an inline rig with an EVF, so this would effectively blind me whilst capturing on the Shogun. Thankfully, it's not true.
 
You're correct, not being able to use an EVF and the shotgun while shooting 4K is a bummer. Btw, I heard back from Convergent Design tech support and the 7Q does NOT support 4k on with the Sony A7s. The 7Q HDMI can't handle 4k and it will not be able to handle 4k in the future. It's a hard ware limitation not a software/firmware limitation. This was confirmed via email a couple days ago. The Shogun is the only portable option for the A7s at this point. I can only assume Sound Devices will be releasing a new version of their Pix Series soon. Honestly, I'm surprised we haven't heard anything yet.

And yes the 7Q will down convert 4k to HD, but you you have to purchase a 4k unlock for each camera you want to use. One more thing about the 7Q. Although the price is a couple hundred cheaper than the Shogun, the 7Q does not handle 4k out of the box. For instance, it's an additional $799 to unlock 4k for the FS700 and FS7. The Canon Raw and 4k unlock is $1499 (or $99/day to rent). The Arri Raw unlock is $2000 ( or $149/day) to unlock. Everything is alacart .
 
Yes most monitors can up and down res when working within the HD world ( 1080 and 720). But the Shogun only outputs what the input is. 4k in 4k out. 1080 in and 1080 out. I can probably even do 1080 in and 720 out, but i haven't asked Atomos tech support that questions specially.
 
Personally, I think its a travesty that the only 4k recorders available for such a tiny camera are two cumbersome 7" behemoths. One of which you have to pay through the nose for, for every little thing, and the other which cant even downconvert to an EVF. Shameful. A total lack of insight and understanding for the enduser of this camera. In terms of budget and ergonomie. I welcome other competitors to the market.

if I was a mahnufacturer, I would be working like hell to make an EVF which doubles as a 4K recorder. Duh. It's obvious. It would sell like hotcakes for all these endusers. And don't say it's not possible because of heat, etc. Because if you can fit it into a GH4 or NX1 camera body, you can fit it into an EVF. Or at the very least make a smaller monitor that you can put a hood on. No brainer.
 
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yoclay said:
Personally, I think its a travesty that the only 4k recorders available for such a tiny camera are two cumbersome 7" behemoths. One of which you have to pay through the nose for, for every little thing, and the other which cant even downconvert to an EVF. Shameful. A total lack of insight and understanding for the enduser of this camera. In terms of budget and ergonomie. I welcome other competitors to the market.

if I was a mahnufacturer, I would be working like hell to make an EVF which doubles as a 4K recorder. Duh. It's obvious. It would sell like hotcakes for all these endusers. And don't say it's not possible because of heat, etc. Because if you can fit it into a GH4 or NX1 camera body, you can fit it into an EVF. Or at the very least make a smaller monitor that you can put a hood on. No brainer.
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Then do it.
 
Atomos had to introduce a small physical change into the design of the Shogun a couple of months back, because it was getting too hot and they needed even bigger heatsinks. AFAIK, it works with an FPGA (the GH4 uses an ASIC), because this is what makes sense for a small-volume product. Don't expect something like the Ninja Star (or maybe even a Ninja Blade) to record 4K until either they get more modern FPGAs (no idea which one they use right now) or somebody releases an ASIC that's capable of this kind of work.

Maybe with a slow moving fan? These companies are going all in at each other's throat, so soon enough we'll know what's possible and what is not.
 
It is correct that the Odyssey7Q currently does not record 4K or UHD over HDMI. However we have stated that we are committed to offering a path for Odyssey7Q owners to be able to do so in the near future. Our engineers have been working hard at this and we will offer our solution soon.

Please note that Odyssey7Q record options are only in support of RAW signals from specific cameras. Such RAW signals are unique to each camera, and Convergent Design must program support for these signals on a custom basis. For instance on the FS700 we not only record the camera's 4K RAW up to 60p and 2K RAW up to 240p, but we also communicate with the camera to support recording a very camera-specific 4K RAW burst of 440 frames of 120p. We also do not just record the RAW outputs, but additionally take the 4K RAW, deBayer it into high quality video, and then record it in UHD or supersampled HD in ProRes 422(HQ). This is a processing-intensive functionality that is quite advanced and not offered by any other recorder system, not Codex, not Atomos, not Sound Devices, not even Sony's own recorder solution. For this advanced functionality that only applies to the FS700 and the new FS7 we do charge an extra fee. Should you not be using either of those cameras then you do not need it so you don't pay. Otherwise we would have to amortize the cost into the price of all Odyssey7Q units sold.

The Sony a7S outputs UHD and HD video, not RAW. As standard video signals, we support recording them in ProRes 422(HQ) on the base unit of the Odyssey7Q. There is no additional record option to capture 4K or UHD video. We currently have clients who are using the Odyssey7Q o record 4K video in ProRes 422(HQ) from the Sony F55 and the Panasonic GH4 (with the YAGH base), and they are doing so without purchase of an additional record option.
 
Heat management is a very serious design issue within advanced processing tools such as a 4K-capable recorder. The Odyssey7Q has no fan, no heat pipes, no water cooling or other heat-related engineering. The magnesium casing naturally disapates heat, but the Odyssey7Q never gets more than slightly warm to the touch. The only consideration we needed to add to the device was small ribs on the back that are not heat sink fins but are instead spacers so that no 3rd party manufacturers made plates that would restrict the minimal amount of air flow we felt necessary to disapate heat. It takes an incredible amount of smart power regulation, physical casement & layout design, and efficient programming structure to create a powerful device that does not also generate a considerable amount of heat. Good design is not just accomplishing a task but also doing it in a manner that takes into account other issues. Heat management and power efficiency are key issues we address at every step.
 
If the Shogun doesn't downconvert 4K out to HD then a converter like the $300 BlackMagic Mini Converter SDI to HDMI 4K will be needed. I would velcro it to the back of my 27" producer/director monitor.

I think if it's possible to implement and it's a feature people want then start requesting it. The Shogun has a ton of features that users asked for. Speak up. I know I want HD out while recording in 4K. It does get complicated with frame rates and resolution so it's not as simple as just add an HD out signal.

I usually us a monitor or EVF but I do see myself having both now that the monitor is a recorder. Shooting outside in daylight will be a test I need to perform. Indoors I think the 7" monitor will be enough and it has a punch in feature too unlike the Ninja Blade.
 
Thanks for pointing this out Erik. I assumed the SDI to HDMI 4K only up samples but it does tell you in the description that it down samples. It mentions reclocking the signal as well. Hopefully it reclocks on the down sampling as well.


Regardless of which recorder you go with, many of us will still require an up and down converter as part of our kit.
 
Out of interest does anyone know how large the 4K Raw Cinema DNG files will be? I can't seem to find this info anywhere online.
 
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