MichaelFischer.at
Active member
I'd also say 3 or 6. 1 is too contrasty, 5 a little too washed out!
Add "coloring / grading" section to POST-PRODUCTION TOOLS section of DVX?
- Thread starter starcentral
- Start date
I'd also say 3 or 6. 1 is too contrasty, 5 a little too washed out!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Just canvassing how many fans the log look (doesnt) have compared to 'proper' and too much contrast
S
Jaime Valles
Veteran
#3 or #6.
Another vote for the color grading section here!
Another vote for the color grading section here!
Ha!
well to me they all could work in context, and as a colorist my gig is to realise the vision of the director and DP... then make it better than anyone thought possiable on a good day
i think the logola hoha seems to have has had it's day in the sun, noone's asked me for that look in months, maybe even in a few years, but i also generaly work with grownup's, and rarely to never have inexperienced DP's in the suite, and never deliver primairly to youtube.. and that seems to be the common combnation for that "look"
"correct" contrast in a vacum, without context can really only a be a theoritical talking point eh? there's no way of evaluating a shot of a building at sunset beyond clipped highlights and the "unacceptable noise" floor - and where everything inbetween lands is artistic choice?
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i worry about the blind leading the blind.. there's not alot of working colorists with say more the 30 features and series here, i may be the only one
the amount of misinformation and shear BS however well intentioned is already overpowering any reasonable discussion, i rarely bother to post much of anything, letting the kids who know pretty much nothing express themselves to each other about things they know nothing of... and everyone now knows more nothing...
I'd suggest sending gradeing questions to LGG where folks with real seat time and real experince talk about real soultions
i do come here to research some of the camera's that my clients shoot with, the low end pro-sumer camera's are getting to the point that it's reasonable to expect them to cut against an Alexa or Dragon with some dumbing down of the A cam, i have gained alot of knoledge of these camera's here, and in doing so have also read many many posts about post that are pretty far off target from a technical viewpoint, actualy the majority of posts about post are reality deprived it seems from where i stand.
So i'd advise against setting up a gradeing section as the comunity's knoledge base is not deep or strong enough to support the end game, or even close to that goal at this point.
Keep doing what you do well, there is well earned trust already on that file, maybe revisit in a few years?
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starcentral
Veteran
We can worry about a lot of things but I wouldn't condescend on the good old folks here on DVXuser.
There are a lot of talented people here who know a thing or two and I know speaking for myself I sure wish there was even an ounce of information 5 years about about delogging footage and how to defeat Sony's old color science look for example. Any information is better than no information in my books and I think we all know the internet is full of experts so we don't take everything we read as gospel.
I love LiftGammaGain forums for the deep wealth of information it brings but what I've found posting and reading replies there is that if you were to raise a discussion about some difficulties in grading camera X or camera Y footage etc.. the reply is something along the lines of "oh well I have no problems with it so neither should you". Similarly if you were to even mention the LUT word there or try and discuss high end professional consumer monitors for the purposes of grading you will almost surely be schooled, lectured, and kicked to the curb on the topic by the "industry professionals" there.
I think DVXuser is way more laid back and way more open to answering simple or even complex questions. If you've even graded ONE feature film you probably have something to say that others will learn from, never mind 30 feature films. I think if you yourself have worked on over 30 feature films people would really love to hear what you have to say about it - and maybe you can even start the first thread in the new COLOR GRADING section when it opens?
:thumbsup:
There are a lot of talented people here who know a thing or two and I know speaking for myself I sure wish there was even an ounce of information 5 years about about delogging footage and how to defeat Sony's old color science look for example. Any information is better than no information in my books and I think we all know the internet is full of experts so we don't take everything we read as gospel.
I love LiftGammaGain forums for the deep wealth of information it brings but what I've found posting and reading replies there is that if you were to raise a discussion about some difficulties in grading camera X or camera Y footage etc.. the reply is something along the lines of "oh well I have no problems with it so neither should you". Similarly if you were to even mention the LUT word there or try and discuss high end professional consumer monitors for the purposes of grading you will almost surely be schooled, lectured, and kicked to the curb on the topic by the "industry professionals" there.
I think DVXuser is way more laid back and way more open to answering simple or even complex questions. If you've even graded ONE feature film you probably have something to say that others will learn from, never mind 30 feature films. I think if you yourself have worked on over 30 feature films people would really love to hear what you have to say about it - and maybe you can even start the first thread in the new COLOR GRADING section when it opens?
:thumbsup:
Jim Ritscher
Well-known member
yes
yea, gottit...
that said i don't use LUTs, and i do use callibrated monitoring...
i did post something here the other day, someone asking about the f35, a camera used on a film i graded years ago, and i gave him my starting point, then i was working in Nucoda FilmMaster but as of Resolve 12.2 the similar tools are on offer finaly.
no lut's, only to go gently and do the least you can to the image, and work with the tools that are the cleanest.. these are not the easiest tools to use tho or the most obvious tools to turn to
90% + of the post/gradeing questions are about applying LUT's.... and then wondering why the skintones are crap ;-)
so yea i guess i fit nicely into the folks at LGG, but i can make a camera look pretty good, without a LUT in sight, but if all one hears is what they want to hear, and what they want to hear is advice on a LUT... ummmmmmm yea... the value of a section devoted to applying LUT's while working with uncallibrated mon's is of limited value?
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I think we have the first few topics in the new section all worked out then:
- LUTs, What exactly do they do, and why we shouldn't use them.
- Which tools should be used instead of LUTs.
- For those of us who may not be able to afford a calibrated monitor, what's the next best thing?
- Other suggestions?
- LUTs, What exactly do they do, and why we shouldn't use them.
- Which tools should be used instead of LUTs.
- For those of us who may not be able to afford a calibrated monitor, what's the next best thing?
- Other suggestions?
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
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adkimery
Veteran
The only one I dislike is #4. All the others I think could work depending on what look you are going for.
-Andrew
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
None of us are blind (as my video shows) while we may not have skills the only thing that matters is the final result.. and we all know what we want as we are knowlegable.. as viewers.. the only people who count.
I vote forum
starcentral
Veteran
Sorry I didn't mean to make you or LGG folks sound like jerks which is probably how my post sounded.
I guess the best thing to do is let those LUT questions come up here, then we ask why they are being used in the first place? Is it for fast delogging, or getting a fast look by adding a bit of cyan here or there, or for getting some film emulation response? Then we go from there. There are a lot of reasons to use LUTs, and a lot of reasons not to. I think whenever LUTs come up people should differentiate between "purpose" and that might help steer the discussion better?
About using or not using LUTs I kind of sit in the middle but more and more myself have veered away from using them. I was using the beta F65 slog2 LUT when I first got my F55 because I didn't know how to grade the footage and wanted a fast starting point. Today I can do it from scratch and I know people will laugh but I'm using a AVID Color surface panel now and it's helped me a lot in ways that are probably hard to understand unless you've actually used one. So personally I would have very little reason to use LUTs at all to establish a base (REC709) or work on developing a stylized look.
I might reply more on grading monitors a bit later, I really need some coffee right now.
Dennis;
Although i have graded films with Resolve's big panel and the full Elements set as well, i'm faster with this combnation on Resolve that with the others. but alot of that is down to the macro's i've written that are triggered by the mappable softkeys in Color, Transport, and XKeys, Twister gives me access to RGB|LGG
On Baselight/Daylight/BLE color and transport are very good, no need for the XKeys and Twister, Elements is pretty crappy there.
With Nucoda i use Elements and the mapping there is sublime
but i have graded dozen films or more with nothing more than a Wacom tablet and software that was designed around that interface.. frustration in Resolve, Nucoda, Baselight is replaced with joy in Cyborg2k, DS, Flame, Luster
I agree, there's a ton of discussion at LGG, and alot of discussion has been derailed due to basic misunderstanding of nameing (the words "film emulation" being the prime suspect in that file)
that's my favorite small surface when paired with Transport, XKeys and MidiTwister
Although i have graded films with Resolve's big panel and the full Elements set as well, i'm faster with this combnation on Resolve that with the others. but alot of that is down to the macro's i've written that are triggered by the mappable softkeys in Color, Transport, and XKeys, Twister gives me access to RGB|LGG
On Baselight/Daylight/BLE color and transport are very good, no need for the XKeys and Twister, Elements is pretty crappy there.
With Nucoda i use Elements and the mapping there is sublime
but i have graded dozen films or more with nothing more than a Wacom tablet and software that was designed around that interface.. frustration in Resolve, Nucoda, Baselight is replaced with joy in Cyborg2k, DS, Flame, Luster
ummmm.. there's luts and there's luts....
example below is BMD's VFX I/O folder, 4 transforms, 709-> linear light | linear light -> cineon | cineon -> linear light | linear light -> 709;
super clean, as expected, see the same from the technical luts in Baselight, Nucoda, Flame, DS...
now here's aso called film emulation lut that someone actualy paid for;
note the math errors pretty much everywhere top to tail. now check out some detail in the skintone area;
and the highlight roll off area;
this is a LUT that sems to be popular on this site, get mentioned commonly as a good option... and then folks wonder why their skin tones are all blotchy and the highlights have artifacts, and then go buy a new camera ;-)
kinda funny / sad from where i stand, and the main reason I usualy won't bother to mention that maybe, possiably the empror has no clothes on is becasue it's been gone through in detial on LGG and the resualt from where i sat was denial
So yea, a forum devoted to the blind leading the blind to apply destructive LUTs on the grounds that it's easy to do and seems ok on a ipad.... then blame the blotchy skintones and crapped out highlights on the camera.. well the amusement factor cannot help but come into play
If / when i get a lut from production i put them over a ramp, and then reverse engineer them.. takes me a few min, saves the skintones... if one really lurves the look of a LUT, pay for it, and reverse engineer it so the math errors are minimuised and nothing gets clipped or crushed and the image stays in 32 float
The place i do use LUTs is for technical reasons, ie VFX I/O or if a lab provides me with one for their chemistry and processes when a show goes to filmout, but that's pretty rare these days, mainly sourth asia, and the lab i deal with in Mumbai prefers ADX now...
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starcentral
Veteran
Great post Dermot.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Dermot - I understand all of this.
duscussion of monitoring device is dependent on how your audience will watch.
Many are not delivering for broadcast but for "web watching" much of which happens on iPads - hence suggesting that as a monitoring device
I would suggest your fancy setup actually misleads you into not understanding the experience a typical viewer may have - of course if you are delivering for cinema your setup looks appropriate.
s
duscussion of monitoring device is dependent on how your audience will watch.
Many are not delivering for broadcast but for "web watching" much of which happens on iPads - hence suggesting that as a monitoring device
I would suggest your fancy setup actually misleads you into not understanding the experience a typical viewer may have - of course if you are delivering for cinema your setup looks appropriate.
s